The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast

Kaley Olson: Hello friends. Welcome back to the Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast, where we share biblical truth for any girl in any season. I'm your host, Kaley Olson, and I'm joined by my co host, Meredith Brock. Meredith, will you tell the people what they're in for today?

Meredith Brock: I would love to, Kaley. Well, Kaley and I got to sit down, with Lysa TerKeurst today and ask her a bunch of questions about her experience, her life of both ministry as a job, but also ministry as a lifestyle, guys. All of us as believers are called into ministry. Into discipleship, into evangelism, all of those things, and then some of us are called into it as also a job.

And so, we dive deep into this with Lysa today. It really is such valuable content and discussion. I know you're gonna love it.

Kaley Olson: Yeah. I can't wait.

So, let's jump in. Okay, Lysa, we have you on the podcast today because here's the deal. You're a mom, and you're a woman, and now you're a grandmother who have done a lot of things. You have helped start and sustain a ministry that now reaches women around the world, and you're also a best selling author called to share the difficult parts of your story with others who are facing similar situations. And I think there's a lot of women in the Proverbs 31 world listening to this podcast who are saying, man, if I could catch Lysa in the airport one day and just get thirty minutes to just ask her some questions, this is what I would wanna know about.

And so today, we're letting this be that episode for our listeners. We've come up with a few questions we think that, our listeners might have about what it looks like to step out in faith into their calling, maybe doing so while in the trenches of motherhood, and how to balance that, and even what, leadership, leading yourself and leading others, looks like. Meredith and I are in many ways reflective of our audience, and so my hope for today's conversation is that we can not only hear your advice, but maybe even add a little color of our own based on the experience that we have. So are you ready?

Lysa TerKeurst: I am ready.

Kaley Olson: I'm ready too. Okay. Let's dive in. Meredith, kick us off.

Meredith Brock: Yes. I love this question because I ask this question in my head often, which is, okay, was that God telling me to do that, or was that my own thoughts telling me to do that? So how do you, Lysa, in your personal life, you know, as you've navigated so many big decisions in ministry, how do you discern God's voice from your own thoughts, and do you have any advice for that girl who wants to step out in faith, but she's feeling pretty unsure of was that God's voice or was that mine?

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. I think that's great. I think there's two sides to this.

Sometimes, I think we are scared to step out in faith and do ministry assignments. First of all, the question is like, what ministry assignments? Who's gonna be interested? You know, what do I even have to say? So I think there could be that category.

I think there could be another category though too, with the social media, you know, everybody is hyper aware now of what it looks like. And sometimes, stepping into ministry can very much look like, man, that is glamorous. That is amazing. You know, because you see a speaker having immediate impact, thousands of women sitting in the audience. So I think there's two sides.

One, someone who is pretty eager, because that looks very exciting, and then there's someone who is fearful, because it looks intimidating and they're unsure of how to do it. So I want to address both. Let's start with the person who says, wow, that looks amazing, and I think I want to do that. I I want you to know, when I started, I did not have an awareness of what big ministry looked like, and I think God did me a great favor in that.

I didn't have aspirations to stand up on a stage and speak to thousands of women, because when I started, there was no pictures of that in front of me. All that was in front of me was a few women who were getting together, and we were putting together this little newsletter that was Xerox copied, and then we would fold them, we would sort them, and we'd put, like, label, mailing labels on them, we even put stamps on them, and we would put them in the little box to carry to the post office. And, you know, we had several hundred subscribers, because between our friends and family, and then maybe a few neighbors they recommended the newsletter to, that was it.

And so, to someone who is incredibly eager because you see something big, and you think stepping into ministry equates to automatic big, stepping into ministry equates to automatic big Yeah. I just wanna tell you a couple of things. One, big does not necessarily mean effective. You know, you can you can strive for big, and I get the concept there, but I want to hear Christine Caine say this, and it it really, I think, is a good thing for us to think about. If the spotlight on you is brighter than the light of Jesus coming from you, then that's gonna be a problem.

And I always pray, God, develop my character to match my calling. And so, if you are picturing like, okay, today I'm going to write some messages, and tomorrow I'm going to be on a big stage and reaching a lot of people, I just want to encourage you, you can be highly effective in ministry without a massive audience. Because the way that I started was very, very small, and I'm so grateful. Because the Lysa, thirty one years ago, when I walked into my first meeting, considering this thing potentially called Proverbs 31, my oldest daughter, Hope, was in an infant carrier. And I walked in, and it was small.

It was very, very small. And speaking opportunities that came several years later, after being faithful with that small little newsletter, the speaking opportunities were like, hey, drive two hours, go into the little basement, Sunday school room of a church out in the middle of nowhere, and there's six women that showed up, and they gave you a potted plant, and like, that was still effective.

It was still effective, but not just for the women. It was so crucial for me. Because I wanna make sure that my motivation really is ministry and not my own platform.

You know? And the Lord needed thirty one years ago, character developed to match this calling. And so, you know, I I would just say, if you're kind of eager to do something big for the Lord, recognize anything you place in the hands of the Lord is big, even if by the world standards it looks quite small.

Okay. And be so grateful for the small. Because you would rather cut your teeth on small opportunities than standing up in front of a big audience and recognizing, oh, man, I just crashed and burned. Right?

There's a lot of grace if you kinda crash and burn when you're, like, in front of six people, you know, and you don't have your notes quite right, and you're trying to figure this out, and, you know, all of this. But there's a lot that can be built in you from the humility of the small. The Lord wants us ultimately on our face before him, and there's two pathways to get there. There's the pathway of humility and the pathway of humiliation.

The only difference between those two is that one chooses to bow low while the other trips and falls there, but they both wind up on their face before the Lord. So speaking to that woman who thinks, if I wanna do ministry, it has to automatically be big. I just wanna encourage you that could be a lie that social media has kind of fed into you. So start small. Ask God, develop my character to match my calling.

Step into it slow, and recognize you're not behind. The ministry for me was very slow for a very long time. I think sometimes people look at me because the ministry that I do now is oftentimes, like, in front of big audiences, but it was thirty one years in the making. And there were a lot of small, small, slow years.

There were a lot of years who nobody cared to publish anything written by Lysa TerKeurst. Right? And there there were 15 Christian publishers at the time, like, after years of being in the ministry, I thought, okay, now I'm ready to write a book. And I wrote up a little book proposal, and there were 15 Christian publishers, and I was rejected by all 15 of those publishers. Now, did that mean that I needed to sit in that rejection?

No. It just means that I needed to be faithful with the small that God put in front of me, and when we're faithful and start right where we are, that eventually, God does have a plan. It may not be the multiplication of a massive audience. It may not be a book contract. But whatever it is, anything placed in the hands of God is important.

And important may be the definition that we need to use for big, not massive audience, but effective ministry. So on the flip side of that, maybe you are like, yeah, the thought of a big audience kind of terrifies me, but also the thought of six people terrifies me.

And that is so real, and I just wanna encourage your heart. I know it can seem scary, and I know sometimes you can feel like, I mean, what do I even have? I feel the stirring in my heart. What do I even have to offer?

The very best thing you have to offer is your story of what Jesus has done in your life. And that doesn't mean you have to have a dramatic testimony to have an effective testimony. But remember what Revelation tells us, that the enemy is defeated by the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony.

You know, one of the most eye opening and probably profound impacts that I have been made aware of in my ministry is something I shared in our staff meeting this morning, twenty four years ago. I was on a plane, and the Lord instructed me to give my Bible away to the man next to me on the plane. That required no platform. That required no planned opportunity. That required nothing but obedience.

You know, our job is to be obedient to God. God's job is to do everything else. And so, here, I I am giving my Bible away, which, by the way, if you've ever heard that story, I did not wanna give my Bible away. But God could have used anyone.

But he used, when I when I stepped out in ministry in that moment, and gave my Bible away, for all I know, that man could have thrown the Bible away in the next airport trash can. I had no idea. But that act of obedience, I found out twenty four years later, that man not only received Christ, he led his entire family to Christ, and his his whole lineage has now changed for generations to come. And that didn't require anything. It didn't require a big social media presence.

It didn't require to speak an invitation. It didn't require, you know, some position of leadership. All it required was my obedience. So if you're nervous, recognize the most effective thing you have in ministry is to be obedient with whatever God has right in front of you. Maybe teach a Bible study in your own home church.

You know, maybe invite a few women over one time. Share your testimony, and, you know, watch and see what God might do to encourage other people, whatever it is. But it requires obedience, and it requires awareness.

Just look at what is right in front of you. Your testimony is powerful because it is the way that you received Jesus. It doesn't have to be dramatic. It just needs to be authentic and real. And you share what the Lord has done in your life, and that's a great encouragement for other people's lives.

And then, if you do wanna get really serious about studying the about teaching the Bible, you gotta get really serious about studying the Bible. So use the smaller years in ministry to really equip yourself, prepare yourself. Go to conferences like She Speaks. Do Bible studies that you can really get into God's word, let God's word get into you, so that you can be prepared at any moment to give an aptly fitted word.

Kaley Olson: That's so good, Lysa. I love that you mentioned obedience and really just following God where he is leading you. And sometimes that might look like giving your Bible away, but you mentioned the word testimony just a minute ago, and I think for some people, people, they might be thinking, oh, what if that's still messy? Like, what if the details of my story are still coming together and it feels messy? When is the right time to share, or is it appropriate to share some of the details of my story that aren't resolved?

So can you speak into someone who's wrestling with that?

Lysa TerKeurst: Yes. I understand that question on a deeply personal level, because sometimes our testimony also involves other people who may or may not want you to include them in your story. And that can be really challenging.

So I wanna tell you two things. One, there's a big difference between privacy and secrecy. Okay? So privacy is withholding some information for the purpose of continued healing and out of respect for others. So you can still share your testimony and choose to be private about a lot of the details.

So you'll notice when you read my books, I am less concerned about sharing details about other people who were involved in some of the hurt and heartbreak that led me to write that particular book. I give the basics of what I went through, but I'm much more concerned about, not details, but about transferable wisdom that I've gained along the way. And the emotional journey of going from hurt to healing. And that emotional journey, that's my story to tell. So I can I feel okay about sharing some of the basics of of what is the backbone that kind of drove the pain in my life?

But the transferable wisdom is really where the nutrition is. I think details sometimes are like sugar. It might satisfy people's curiosity, but it's not gonna give them any nutritional value. The transferable wisdom is what will really help people.

The other thing that I wanna say is, when I said there's a difference between privacy and secrecy, sometimes we can feel like we're not able to be vulnerable because we are not able to share the whole story. So we can be private without feeling the pressure that we're keeping secrets from people. Secrets are for the purpose of hiding information, so that bad behavior can continue. So we're not keeping secrets.

Privacy is withholding information for the purpose of healing. And it's just holding back the details, but you can be very vulnerable about your transferable wisdom and walking ahead.

Meredith Brock: I think we hear a lot, Lysa, at least I have, over the years that we've done She Speaks or even just in conversations with my friends. Yeah, that's great for you to share your story. A lot has happened in your life.

My story is just kinda blah, you know? And so what would you say to that girl who feels this, like, stirring, like the Lord is saying, I wanna use you. I wanna use your story. And then she finds herself trying to tell that story and she just feels like this is this is not big enough, this is not wow enough. You know, what would you say to her?

Lysa TerKeurst: I would say that's part of your testimony. I would say say that right from the beginning because there's a lot of people out there that will relate to that. They haven't walked through the hard and horrific. But here's what I will say, there's a commonality with everyone.

And that is, we've all shed tears over something. We all have disappointments, whether big or small. We all have places that we wrestle because we live in a fallen world.

So therefore, Jesus said, in this world, you will have trouble, but take heart, I've overcome the world. Well, there's your testimony. What trouble have you experienced? What has Jesus helped you overcome?

You know, what what kind of issue in your life is common to people, other people's issue? And it doesn't have to be this, like, big dramatic, you know, like, woah, you know, kind of thing. It can just be the realities of living in a sin soaked world. So what have you cried over?

What's caused pain in your life? Jesus said, in this world, you will have trouble. What trouble have you walked through? And I think that's important. But also, you know, when we teach the Bible, the Bible has people that we can teach about that have pretty dramatic things that have happened in their life.

And so, we don't have to conjure up some big thing that relates to everyone, you know, where maybe we feel like we don't have maybe a story that's incredibly, like, you know, like, it was this, and then 180 degrees later, it was that. Right? But the Bible is full of stories like that. And so, we can also share the testimonies of other people that are in the Bible, and the amazing thing about that is that you can see where someone was, and in a forty five minute message, or in just a few pages turned in the Bible, you can see what God has done. And that is faith building, even if it's not your personal story.

Kaley Olson: I think we've talked a little bit about being vulnerable, but I wanna ask a question more about the, downside of vulnerability. Like, has there ever been a point for you, Lysa, where you've said, okay, I'm gonna share this, and maybe it has caused hurt or hasn't gone the way that you thought it would whenever you said, okay, God, I'll be obedient. I'm gonna share something that's hard, but then it didn't turn out the way that you were hoping it would.

Lysa TerKeurst: I think we all have to be honest. We have different thresholds of vulnerability. You know, even though I'm a pretty private person I have a higher threshold for vulnerability.

But again, I don't share a ton of details. I I really share the transferable wisdom gained along the way. Where I see this sometimes playing out in people's lives is if if they are wanting to share examples or stories with their kids, and I'm sure that I have messed up with this before.

I don't have a specific example to give you, but I do think sometimes we have to be careful about exposing something hard or negative about one of our kids because the Internet never forgets. Yeah. And so I think it's important to either withhold their name, which, if you have one kid, that's gonna be harder to do. If you have multiple kids like me, I have five kids. So it's pretty easy for me to withhold someone's name and then be able to tell, like, a life experience story, with that.

But it is important that we get their permission, and we kinda say, hey, this is the way I'm gonna share the story. Is there anything that makes you hesitant, you know? And just be honest with that child about, like, hey, there's gonna be a couple hundred people listening, you know, whatever. But we don't wanna take too much liberty with other people's stories. So whenever I was sharing examples, I always tried to make the examples, especially with my kids, ones where they weren't the villain in the story.

They they actually wound up having a growth opportunity that taught me a lesson, You know? And so many times, my motherhood stories are, I would go to teach one of my kids a lesson, and God's like, oh, that's interesting. That's actually what I've been trying to teach you.

Kaley Olson: I am right there, yes, with the toddler. My goodness.

Lysa TerKeurst: Yes. Yes. And so making it more about what I've learned from experiences in motherhood rather than pointing out, you know, some epic mistake that one of my kids made.

Kaley Olson: Yeah, I think that that's so important too, because, I mean, being able to relate to people requires vulnerability on some level.

So if we don't if we're not willing to share those details, and, you've said it before at Proverbs, you kind of are talking, like, down to someone about what they're going through rather than meeting them where they are. And relating with —

Kaley Olson: And relating with them, but not overly relating with them. That way, the focus is more on you rather than what you've learned. But I like the words transferable wisdom. I think that those are nuggets that we can kinda hold on to.

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. And if someone is pouring their heart out about a story, and you're like, wow, that sounds like exactly like my story, but you there's a lot of details that that maybe you don't wanna really reveal, like, back to them, you could just, like, take their hand and say, I relate to what you just shared on a very personal level, and here is how God has been helping me. So you see, I'm relating with her totally. I'm telling her, like, hey, a lot of your story or some facets of your story Are things that either I've walked through or I've felt similar feelings, I've felt similar heartbreak.

And so you can simply state, I relate to the hurt in your story. I relate to so many things you just said on a very personal level, and here is what God is doing to help me get through.

Meredith Brock: That's good. That's really good. You know, I think we see oftentimes well, one, I think it's funny when people say, and we've said it a lot on this show, so I'm pointing the finger at myself while I say this. I'm in ministry. Like, it's like a separate thing than what you do every day.

But ministry, the thing about, like, to the point that you were saying with the guy on the plane, ministry is living Christ like, you know? And then you have, then on top of that, we in this podcast studio have a job that is also ministry, like that's what we come to vocationally as well. And I think oftentimes I've experienced this, I've been in ministry a really long time, and over twenty years, And I think for me, oftentimes when I am working vocationally in ministry, what I'm doing feels so important because it's kingdom work. It's eternal, you know, and it can easily become all consuming, you know, and it takes over everything.

You know? And I have gone through seasons of having to wrestle with, like, okay, do I need to press through this right now and just get this done, like, go through this, or is it time for me to pull back and I actually need rest? And, Lysa, I've watched you walk through this too. We've walked through it together. And so I'd love for you to unpack to our listeners, and I think this applies to everybody, because if you're in vocational ministry or not, or if you're just going through something, you're a mom, and there's there's all kinds of stuff going on, and you're you're juggling a busy schedule and, you know, all kinds of things.

How have you navigated those seasons where you were trying to discern, do I need to pull back right now, or do I need to keep pushing through? How has what's that process been like for you?

Lysa TerKeurst: Well, I I'll be honest in saying, you know, sometimes I've done it well and sometimes I haven't.

Meredith Brock: Same.

Lysa TerKeurst: So, you know, I think it's important to acknowledge that. Sometimes, the pain of pushing through when we really need a sense of rest will get great enough that it forces us into a season of rest.

And so, my goal is to pay attention to some of those warning signals that, that come before I, like, crash into a season of rest. I'd like to choose a season of rest. I'd like to walk into. I don't wanna crash and burn into a season of rest. Right?

But some of the warning things for me is, okay, I'm teaching the Bible, but in my free time, am I getting into the Bible for myself? So it's kind of a thing where it's like, okay, I've been reading the Bible all day at work, so, you know, then in my personal life, like, I'm pulling back a little bit. Yeah. I think that's sort of a red flag that's like, you don't need to just be pouring out, you need to be letting the Lord pour into you.

And so that's kind of a warning signal. Another thing, oh man, I've been around all the worship music, all the Bible teaching. Like, I just really don't need to gather with believers in any capacity right now. And look, I know there's church hurt out there, there's a lot of other factors, you know, so I'm not talking about, like, I've been wounded and I need a break. I'm talking about just, I'm sort of just exhausted, and I start to trick myself into thinking, I'm good.

Like, I don't really need the accountability of other Christians, like, talking into my life, speaking into my life. I don't really need to make the effort to go to church. I don't really need to make the effort to gather in a small group or be in a women's Bible study. And when I start to develop the thought of I'm good, that's actually a signal, I'm not as good as I think. Right?

And so, you know, I have intentionally, recently even, joined a women's small group, and we get together on Wednesday nights, and sometimes because of my travel, I can't go. But when I can, I consistently go? And it's not that we're studying anything incredibly profound. We literally open up, we're in the book of James right now, we literally open up James, and somebody in the group reads a few verses, and then together, we unpack it, we apply it. So it's not this big, epic thing, but it is super important.

And believe it or not, being in that group, being accountable to these other women, having these other women praying for me consistently, just having that connection of other believers, is feeding so much rest into my soul. And I don't even understand, because it is another thing added to my to do list, but it is not me feeling the weight of something and pouring out. It's gathering together so we pour into one another.

And when you refresh others, you yourself are refreshed. And I think that small group atmosphere is really important. Also, consistently going to church. You know, there was a season where I was in so much hurt, so much heartbreak, and things felt so out of whack in my life. I was in the process of walking through a very unwanted, hurt like, I was just hurting so deeply, but an unwanted divorce.

And, I I needed just to take some space for a little bit, recalibrate. But the secret is, sure, take some space, recalibrate, but don't give up. And, like, it is good for your soul to stand with other believers and hear believers singing from the depth of their soul that you have a good, good father so that you can sort of stand on other people's faith when you feel like your faith is there, but you're hurting so much, you're not quite able to stand.

So, those are just some of the things, you know. And then also, my attitude toward other people, Our audience is not our enemy. And I think that's really important, to think about and to remember. If you start feeling annoyed by the very people you prayed that God would put in front of you, to minister to and to minister with, that's a huge red flag.

And so oftentimes, you know, when I just this morning it happened, I was on the phone with a group of women that are asking me to come and speak at their event, and they were being very careful, like, you know, we're gonna keep you in the green room, we're gonna do this, you know, we'll walk you out and that, and I'm like, you know what? If there are women that that need me, you know, and like, we we run into someone, you know, on our way from the sanctuary to the green room or whatever, praise God for that. Like, my my audience is not my inconvenience.

My audience is not my enemy. My audience is not something that I need to be, you know, like, kept away from. No. It's like, my audience, that's my assignment.

You know? And as a matter of fact, I started, as as my ministry has grown bigger and bigger and bigger, I started to feel the ache and the pain of being too far removed, sometimes from my audience. And I don't want that. So actually, now, a big important part of my ministry is to gather smaller groups of women. And often, it's a small group of like 50 women who are walking through similar experiences as me, deep heartbreak in their life, and having them come on my property.

And I sit around tables and break bread with broken hearts, because when I look at the ministry of Jesus, he was never ever, ever annoyed with his audience. Now, did he sometimes have to pull back and get alone with the Lord? 100%. He ministered to the individual, he ministered to the crowd, but he also did ministry, a lot of ministry, around tables where he broke bread with broken hearts, and I don't wanna ever discount how important that is.

So sit at a table with just a few people, break bread with broken hearts, and man, you are in ministry. And let that kind of smaller facet feed rest into your soul.

Kaley Olson: That's really good. I have one question, and this is, personal to me because this is the season of life that I'm in now. So now I have a three year old and a seven month old. Wow. He's grown up fast.

But a lot of my friends are in that same season, have toddlers and young kids. And so we went from, working, like, really hard with no kids to now, oh, we have a family. And a lot of the time, we just have this conversation come up, like, hey, I'm called to do both. I'm called to give back outside the home, but I'm also very much so called to be a mom. What words of wisdom, Lysa, have you, have helped you trust God with your family when you found yourself in moments like that?

Because I know that you felt this way too. You mentioned bringing Hope in an infant carrier, and I'm pretty sure I brought Emmett in an infant carrier here to the office for something. But maybe if you could go back to speak to Lysa twenty five, thirty years ago, what would you tell her about the season of her life?

Lysa TerKeurst: Well, I have the benefit now of my children being grown. So my youngest is 26 years old, my oldest is 36 years old, so, and then I have five, you know, kids.

So they range in age along that span. So they are adult adults now. Right? And so, it's so interesting.

I just had this conversation with Hope, and of course, she's 31, because she was in the infant carrier 31 years ago. But I just had this conversation with her about, like, what did I do well? And, you know, just because she grew up in ministry.

And, you know, with her mom doing ministry. And so I just asked her, like, what did I do well that helped you feel like you weren't competing against the ministry, and the ministry wasn't competing against you? And she said, mom, I loved it when you took me to the office. I loved it when you took me, with you on speaking engagements. And I think the reason she loved it so much is she didn't just feel the burden of what the ministry, you know, took in terms of my time, but she felt the blessing of feeling incredibly special.

Like, I'm part of this. Like, I can I can do this? And I saw it even in my granddaughter's. I hosted one of those 50 women retreats at my home this past weekend, and, my two granddaughters were there, and they participated in it from the minute it started to the minute that it ended, and they took it so seriously. I even brought Susie up front.

Susie is my eight year old granddaughter. I brought her up front to pray, right before one of the sessions started. And I was expecting her, she's so, like, sweet and fun and funny, but I was expecting her to, like, totally pray for the women, and she did. But she did this, she was like, Lord, please just help all of these women also…make them buy a lot of books. Amen.

So, that was like missing the mark a little bit, Susie. But, but the beautiful thing with that is that if we can give them a vision of the work that we're doing, and as much as we can, invite them, when it's appropriate, invite them into it. Hope said that that meant a lot to her. I also recently asked my kids, like, what was one of the best things that I ever did as a mom?

And I was totally thinking, like, when I spent hours, you know, hours with you outside and we played in the park, I was thinking, like, when I took you to, like, a big amusement park, when we went to the beach on vacation, you know, I was expecting all these answers. And do you know what all three of my daughters said? That their favorite thing that I did with them as a mom is when I would put them in a bubble bath, and I would let them drink strawberry hot chocolate in the bubble bath, and I would read Eloise books to them. And they just thought that was the coolest thing. I'm like, are you kidding me?

Like, do you know how much money I could have saved if I just did that more often? I just did that more than So I just think we need to remember, like, as a mom, we're gonna have the intuition when too much is too much. Be honest with that. You know, be honest.

Instead of letting your thoughts spiral into guilt, let it propel you into action. But also, recognize that intentionality with your kids can sometimes create really special moments. And just recognize, yeah, any job you have is gonna be something that takes your time away and is gonna be a little bit of a burden at times. So just make sure that the job is the burden and the kids never become the burden.

And do intentionally wonderful things with them to help them see there's a blessing side to ministry as well.

Meredith Brock: Amen. So good, Lysa. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. And as we wrap up, here's what I want to challenge our listeners with.

God can and will use you in whatever season you are in. At Proverbs 31, we want to be champions of that season and come alongside you, whether that's simply through helping you build a solid foundational relationship with Christ through daily connection with his word or through an experience you have where you set aside some time to make a personal investment into your calling to let God use what he's brought you through. If that's you, we wanna come we want to invite you. I want to invite you personally to our annual She Speaks conference, where we will challenge you, equip you, and invest in your unique calling to make a difference in this world like we know you want to. So go visit she speaks conference, that's one big word dot com to check out our affordable ticket options this year.

And hurry, they are going really, really fast, and we don't want you to miss out.

Kaley Olson: We're so excited. Alright, friends. That is all for today.

At Proverbs 31 Ministries, we believe when you know the truth and live the truth, it changes everything.