The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast

Meredith Brock: Well, hi, friends. Thanks for tuning in to the Proverbs 31 Ministries podcast where we share biblical truth for any girl in any season. I'm your host, Meredith Brock, and I am here today with my cohost, the lovely Kaley Olson, as well as our guests. We're in person in the same room.

Kaley Olson: I know.

It's so fun. It's so nice.

Meredith Brock: Nice and cozy. Were here with us.

Around the table.

Kaley Olson: I wish there were too, but there's honestly no room. There's no room. So, we'll just pretend that they're here.

Meredith Brock: Okay. Well, Kaley, why don't you take a moment and introduce our new friends here in the studio?

Kaley Olson: I am. I will. I'm so excited. We're excited to welcome Jordan Raynor and Kayleigh Cox to the show today. They are co-authors of a brand-new book called Five Mere Christians, which came out in May of this year.

And I've heard of this book referred to as a bingeable biography, partly because I listened to a podcast episode with you on it. And I know that that was your goal in writing the book toward it. But it highlights the stories of five men and women who changed the world by following Christ in their careers. And Five Merry Christians is actually what we're reading in August 2025 in the Circle thirty-one Book Club. So welcome to the show, guys.

Thanks for having us. So excited. So excited. So excited. So excited.

Thank you. But first, we gotta do some introductions for our new friends. First, a little about Jordan. He's helped millions of Christians around the world connect the gospel to their work through his books, podcasts, and devotionals. He also serves as the executive chairman of Threshold three sixty, a venture backed tech startup.

That's fun to say. That's a lot of words. We don't normally say words like that on the podcast. It's more venture backed tech startup. That's a mouthful.

Normally, it's like, she's a mom and she's a writer and she's this, and I'm like, this is really fun. So, you previously ran that, Threshold three sixty as the CEO. And fun fact, Jordan, when I Googled your name, just for fun, I was like, what what's gonna come up? You served in the White House?

Jordan Raynor: I did.

Kaley Olson: Is that right?

Jordan Raynor: I did.

Kaley Olson: Okay. Can we pause just a little bit before you introduce Kayleigh? Just in a sentence.

Jordan Raynor: So, fall two thousand and six, I took a semester off at Florida State to go do an internship in the Bush administration. That's cool. It was a blast. It was really great.

Kaley Olson: That's amazing. So, did you actually get to go in the Oval Office?

Jordan Raynor: I did. Oh, okay. And it's how I got my wife to agree to date me.

Okay. This is true. She said no prior to the White House tour. Okay. So, I had to take her to the Oval, take her to the Rose, go big.

Okay. But for real, like, now? What do you think? Are we are we good? We're gonna give this a shot.

Yeah.

Kaley Olson: Yeah. That's kinda how that whole That's amazing. Very cool. So cool.

Okay. Kayleigh, besides having, you know, a great name, let's talk a little bit about you. Your connection to Jordan is actually pretty cool. So, you are a student of the Faith and Work movement, a long-time reader of his work. And so, in 2023, when Jordan emailed his list and searched for a co-author of his next book, You Apply, which I thought I was like, that's fascinating.

We need to talk about that a little bit if there's time that after interviewing more than 150 candidates, including a couple of New York Times best-selling authors, Jordan hired you.

Kayleigh Cox: He did.

Kaley Olson: Which is so cool.

Kayleigh Cox: I mean It was a big risk.

Kaley Olson: That's amazing.

People keep asking freelanced. I did. I did. Book stuff. Yeah.

But you guys coauthored the book while you're still working as a full time, marketing employee. And then in January of this year, Jordan hired you as his VP of marketing. So now you guys work together all the time. That's amazing. Yeah.

Meredith Brock: What a cool story. We're gonna have fun today. I think that there's just like lots to unearth together in this little group of four. So, we're really excited to have you guys here with us today. I think before we go any further, though, let's discuss the actual purpose of this book because I'm gonna be honest.

The title me first of all, mirror, and any title is like, is it a mirror I look into? Is it like what is that? And then mere five mere Christians. That's such an interesting title even. So, Jordan, you're a leader in the faith and work movement.

So, will you define what that is for us and what made you so passionate about this book? Yeah. Why'd you title it that? Like, give us a little more. Yeah.

Jordan Raynor: So other than being a blatant steal of C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity and all the SEO juice on Amazon that comes with that

Meredith Brock: Hey. Brilliant.

Jordan Raynor: This term here Christians is what I use to describe believers like me who are not pastors or donor supported missionaries, but who work as entrepreneurs and baristas and teachers and stay at home parents, and that's who I write all my books for. And these believers deeply wanna glorify God in everything that they do, including their work, but they're not always sure what that looks like practically. Right?

So, I'm constantly hearing from readers, Jordan, how do I view my work as sacred when I spend more time preparing PowerPoints, than I do praying prayers? Right? Or how in the world can I be salt and light in my neighborhood or in my corporate workplace without losing my saltiness or, to be real practical, my job? Right? And those questions are where the rubber meets the road, and there's two ways that you can answer them.

One, I could tell you how to glorify God through theological exposition, or number two, I could show you through stories. And I think the latter is so much more powerful. Mhmm. I read this Tim Keller sermon from years ago, and he said something. He said, quote, you never learn anything spiritually valuable by being told.

You have to be shown, end quote. And so, while I myself have written my fair share of books telling mere Christians how to glorify God in their work, I really wanted to write something to show them that was 95% story and animation and 5% theological exposition. And that's what Five Mere Christians is, this collection of binge worthy biographies of my five favorite men and women who changed the world without a pulpit. They are biographies, but I know our listeners are, like, about to tune out when we say the word biography because they, like me, probably have a love hate relationship with that genre of books. Because listen, most biographies are way too freaking long.

Right? They're way too boring. Yeah. And they're way too disconnected from the life of the modern reader. And so, Kayleigh and I sat down and said, man, we wanna reimagine this genre of books.

We wanna write biographies that are, number one, mercifully short. Each of these five stories can be read in less than an hour. Number two, extremely entertaining. I kept saying beach, read, crushable. Beach, read, crushable.

That's the vision for this book. And then number three, profoundly helpful. Right? Most biographies make the person being biographed out to be the hero. We have not.

We've made the Holy Spirit in them the hero. Right? And showing the reader, hey. That same Holy Spirit lives in you, is working through you to transform your community, to transform glorify God in the job God has already placed in your hands in the present. Yeah.

Kaley Olson: I love that because I feel like we often overcomplicate that and we separate it. But you talk about faith and work like it's they're together. And Kayleigh, as you and I were emailing back and forth and we were like, how do we make this topic really impactful to our podcast audience in a short amount of time? And we started talking about moms because a huge portion of our audience at Proverbs 31 is moms in any season of life. Meredith and I are in the trenches.

I'm really in the trenches. And a lot of our audience, I mean, no matter how old your kids are, you still have the identity of a mom. And so, as we were talking about what that could look like, you brought up in your research of these five people something you discovered as a common thread is the unseen but deeply spiritual influence of mothers. And so that's where we're gonna kinda land the plane today and really go in deeper. And so, let's start there with a question.

As a mom, why do you think it's so important for us to hear the stories featured in Five Mere Christians?

Kayleigh Cox: So, as Jordan said, we wrote this book for all sorts of people, moms or not, men or women. And they you know, we have these stories and then the practical takeaways and they apply if you're a stay-at-home mom, if you're a CEO, if you're a photographer, whatever type of work you may do. But, yeah, there's this kind of subtle more subtle thread, throughout the book where on some of these, men and women, we were tempted to completely change tactic and write about the moms because they were incredible. And so, I think as a mom, it's easy to believe that the work you do at home is unseen Mhmm.

And it may be hard to believe that that work matters. But these takeaways in the book were often first modeled by the moms. Mhmm. And so, what these women did when no one but their own children were really around to see it, their kids grew up and did it on a national or global stage and changed the world as a result. And so, I'm hoping that as we share some of those stories today and in the book, it'll encourage moms that not just this book, but the faith and work topic as a whole is not just for people with a full-time job.

Yeah. The work they do at home as a mom is work Amen. And can be done to the glory of God. Yeah. Mhmm.

Kaley Olson: Yeah. And I think too, as a mom, a lot of times, we think, is this even making a difference? Yeah. Like all this work that I'm doing, are my kids actually soaking it in? And I think whenever you get on the other side of it, you know, you're able to see it.

Okay. Like all those little minutes and little hours did add up. And I think that's the cool thing about leaning into these biographies is that you did the work, and you can see, oh, but look at look at this person. So, let's jump in with mister Rogers, Jordan. In your book, you show how Fred Rogers' life and work were shaped in a large part by his mother, Nancy.

That I just Nancy's such a sweet name. I just, you know, mama Nancy. Mhmm. So, can you start by teaching us about Nancy's influence on Fred?

Jordan Raynor: I would love to.

And I remember when we were writing Fred's biography, I was like, I wanna write a biography on Nancy Rogers. This woman was extraordinary. So, before I talk about Nancy, I wanna provide a little introduction to Fred Rogers. I don't wanna assume that everybody knows who this is. So, even before I had worked on this book, I saw the documentary on Fred, I saw the movie, I read a biography on him, I thought I knew his story.

Yeah. But, man, as I dug into it for this book, I learned that there is so much more to Fred Rogers than I ever knew. I'll give you a quick example. Many people know that Fred Rogers was the host of the wildly popular show, Mister Rogers' Neighborhood. Mhmm.

So, they did 900 episodes. At the peak, 10% of American kids were tuning in every single day to watch the show. But very few people know that the show almost never happened at all. So, in 1955, Fred's career in television was just taking off, and he felt very conflicted about his future in television. He enjoyed his work as a writer and a cohost of this program called the Children's Corner, which is basically a precursor to neighborhood.

And he loved working with children. He was natural in front of the camera, but according to one biographer, quote, he couldn't quite give up the idea of service through the church he'd found attractive as a young boy sitting in the pews with his mother, end quote. Interesting. And so, for years, he split the difference. He enrolled in Pittsburgh Theological Seminary, located across town from the television station where he worked.

And every single weekday for eight years, Fred Rogers would arrive at the station early to begin work, and then he would stop midday and drive 30 blocks to class at seminary and then return to the studio for this live broadcast. Right? So, he's debating, man, do I do I teach behind a pulpit? Do I teach behind a TV camera? But somewhere in the midst of all those drives back and forth between seminary and the studio, this idea began to form within him.

What if his career and calling were not opposite trajectories at all? Right? What if he was called not to choose between these two things but to combine these two things, to carry the work of ministry onto a television set. And so, by wrestling with those questions, Fred ultimately came to understand what the apostle Peter says in first Peter two nine, that every single follower of Jesus is a part of the royal priesthood. All of us, regardless of our job title, are called to extend God's blessings into the world.

In other words, Fred became convinced that there's no such thing as a JV team in the kingdom of God. Right? There are not varsity Christians, pastors and missionaries, and JV Christians. Right? And he understood that he could serve God as a mere Christian working behind puppets on television just as much as he could serve God behind a pulpit in the church.

And we talk more about that revelation and Fred's very winding career path in the book, but the very first place that he saw that truth play out was in his own mother's life and work. So, Nancy Rogers, was phenomenally wealthy. She came from this family who had the foresight to be early investors in radio, and it brought a very sizable inheritance into our marriage. And her husband, Jim, owned several factories in this small town of Latrobe, Pennsylvania. In the comfort afforded by Will, Jim and Nancy absolutely could have turned a blind eye on the less fortunate in their community and embrace this life of endless recreation and leisure, but they didn't.

Mark ten forty-five says that Jesus came not to be served, but to serve. And man, Jim and Nancy Rogers got this deeply. So, Jim would frequently walk the floors of his numerous companies around town, but it wasn't with an eye for correction of his employees. It was really with an eye towards human connection. He would ask employees about their lives and their families, and he was listening very carefully and making mental notes about who was in need.

And then he'd come home, he'd report back what he'd learned to his wife, Nancy, who always spring into action. So, missus Rogers would organize and lead these volunteer ministries composed of several local churches dedicating to meeting the needs of those employees that Jim learned about in his companies. And the Rogers would frequently use their own money to buy what was needed. Nearly everybody in town had been a beneficiary of the couple's generosity or at least knew somebody who was. And after a while, I love this little detail, the school nurse at Latrobe Elementary School, she would just see a student in need, and she would just order the shoes, coats, furniture, whatever the kid needed, and we just have the bills sent directly to Nancy because she knew Nancy

Kaley Olson: Wow.

Jordan Raynor: Would pay for it. Every single year, Nancy would begin Christmas shopping in June because she bought 1,500 Christmas presents that she personally picked out or knitted herself for the needy members Oh, my goodness. Of their community. Wow. And then watching how his mom moved through the world, Fred became firmly convinced that, quote, Life is for service, end quote.

That was Nancy's motto, became his motto, became a guiding motto of Fred's life. He even had a photo hanging in his office with a plaque that read, Life is for service. So, when Fred finished seminary and even became ordained, officially ordained by the, Pittsburgh, Theological Seminary, he decided to commit his life of service to the sphere of children's television. He was so convinced that his work as a mere Christian was ministry That when his friend Bill Barker, went on this trip to Scotland, he bought back a gift for Fred. It was this black and blue tartan pattern tie, necktie, traditionally worn by Presbyterian clergy, and a delighted Fred declared it his clergy tie.

He once told a journalist, quote, I like to wear this on mister Rogers' neighborhood to give a subliminal message, end quote, that he was ministering through the TV camera just as much as the pastor was behind the pulpit. And at the end of his life, he loved that tie so much he asked to be buried in it Wow. As a symbol of his position in God's royal priesthood. Wow. And it all started with seeing his mom live out her role in the royal priesthood as a mother and just a member of that community.

And so, I hope that's a massive encouragement to the moms who are listening. When you use your time, when you use your skills, when you use your resources and energy to serve other people through your work, whether that work is paid or unpaid, that doesn't matter to God. Right? You are influencing how your kids will one day think about their work, about their skills, about their resources, and how they can be leveraged for the eternal kingdom of God.

Kaley Olson: That's amazing.

Meredith, that just reminds me of an interview that we did with Jada Edwards, who was on, just a couple episodes before this one, and her topic was loving your neighbor. And she talked about the agape love of God and how that love goes first. It's sacrificial. But whenever she said that love goes first, it kind of made me think, Jordan, you just unpack that further for us in a very practical way. Because we learned all about just how loving your neighbor doesn't have to be complicated.

Like being some Yeah. Showing Jesus to somebody really is just as simple as paying attention and, like, meeting the need immediately Yeah. Rather than waiting on somebody else to do that. I love that. And it just takes one step forward.

Meredith Brock: You know, I'm sitting here thinking and reflecting. I am a, outcome of mister Rogers. Truly. Truly. So, I my background, a little backstory, is very chaotic family life.

But I remember looking forward to Fred like to Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood whenever I could watch it because it was a moment of peace. Like it was a moment for me, it was like this imaginary land with this very kind man, which I didn't see very often with very kind men. Yeah. And so just even sitting here, I'd never really reflected on the fact that like, man, his ministry impacted me as a little girl.

But I am also thinking about Nancy. Mhmm. And here's the deal, guys. I can guarantee Nancy never thought. Nancy didn't do that for the four of us to be sitting around this table talking about the impact that she had.

Mhmm. Nancy was just faithful with the gifts that God had given her, and she saw her financial means as a gift to bless others. And what an impact she made with zero intention of in 2025, us sitting around a table talking about her. And I just wanna say to some of our listeners right now, you might be in the middle right now. Mhmm.

Just trying to be faithful like Nancy. And, you know, maybe it's not financial means. Maybe you have a car that works, and you can run that kiddo across town to what they need to, and that car ride is your legacy that will be talked about, you know, in 2045. You know, but to remember that you don't see we have the luxury of seeing Nancy's full story and mister Rogers' full story right now, but you may be in the middle and that's okay. Just be faithful.

So, I wanna move us on to the next character in our in this book, because I'm gonna be honest, I should probably be embarrassed about this. I did not know who this character was. You were not allowed. Okay. And so, we Kayleigh, I want you to talk a little bit about, Fannie Lou Hammer.

She was a civil rights hero, and I really don't know anything about her, but it sounds like she had a pretty influential mom too. So, tell us a little bit about that.

Kayleigh Cox: Yes. So, one of the lessons we pull from this woman, before I give you the full introduction, I just kinda wanna not bury the lead here. We pull this takeaway that mere Christians glorify God by doing justice without hating the unjust.

And this woman, Fannie Lou Hamer, is the best possible person to teach us this lesson because she underwent so much injustice that her story is the only one in our book where we had to put a content warning on the first page. She was a civil rights activist. She underwent immense suffering and abuse to stand up against injustice, but it did ultimately lead to ensuring black Americans' right to vote. But none of it would have ever happened if not for the influence of her mom, Ella Townshend. So, Fannie Lou Hamer was born in 1917.

She was the last of 19 children Oh, boy. Born to her parents.

Jordan Raynor: If you think you have a tough night, I don't care.

Meredith: Wow. I'm, like, tired for her.

Kayleigh Cox: Right? So tired. Just so, so tired for her. So, her parents were poor sharecroppers in rural Mississippi. Her dad, Jim, was a part time minister, and her mom was a deeply Christian woman.

She remembered Fannie Lou remembered hearing her mom pray every night, specifically that her kids would live to see adulthood and that she would live to see them reach adulthood. But as we say in the book, Ella didn't just pray and then let go and let God because when the morning sun came up, Ella would carry her gun in a bucket for protection in the field.

Meredith Brock: Yeah. Hey, Ella. Alright. My kinda gal. She's handling business.

Kaley Olson: Yeah. Backpacking, but in a different way. She was a southern mom.

Kayleigh Cox: Yeah. Yes. She was. And so, she Fannie Lou Hamer specifically said her mom was a deeply Christian woman, but, quote, she didn't allow anyone to mess with her children, end quote. And so, she told a particular story of one time a man rode out to the fields intent on taking Ella's teenage niece back with him to, quote, give her a good whipping.

And Ella stood her ground and basically just sent him back where he came from and said he would not be messing with any of the kids out there that day. He wouldn't be messing with family, and he could just move right along. And it's kind of a funny anecdote, but it wasn't funny for her at the time. It took incredible courage. She could have been whipped for intervening.

Quite frankly, she could have been killed for standing up to a white man like she did. But she stood up for what was right, and her young daughter, Fannie Lou, was out there and saw that. She saw her mom walk in this tension of submitting to God's will and prayer without submitting to injustice in her day-to-day life. And she saw that her mom was willing to put herself in harm's way to do what was right. And so, when Fannie Lou grew up, she followed in her mom's example.

Black Americans technically had the right to vote. In fact, in other Southern states, 50 to 70% of the black population was registered to vote. But in Mississippi, they faced serious consequences if they tried to act on that right. In fact, Fannie Lou was arrested and brutally assaulted just for trying to register to vote. And despite the dangers involved, she became diligently committed after that to exposing the injustices in her home state.

In 1964, she had the opportunity to share her story with the Democratic National Committee, and NBC was there to air the whole thing live. And as soon as she took the stand and started to speak, the broadcast came to this abrupt and sudden end. President Johnson, LBJ, was so worried about the political ramifications of people hearing her story that he called this impromptu press conference at the White House. And journalists were hoping he was going to finally announce his running mate, so they cut away from Fannie Lou Hamer to this press conference. But all he did was ramble on for a few minutes about how it was the nine-month anniversary of JFK's assassination.

I mean, LBJ had nothing to say, but he managed to keep her off air. That is until his plan spectacularly backfired because he failed to consider that NBC's cameras would keep rolling even if it wasn't live. And so, they captured her testimony, And the fact that he interrupted it made everyone much more curious than they otherwise would have been to know what she was gonna say. So, as a result of LBJ's actions, her account played in full on that night's evening news to a much larger audience. On the next few days, highlights aired again and again, and all of America came to hear her dramatic gut-wrenching story.

And so, in the years since that day, Hamer's testimony and her tireless work that followed has been hailed as a catalyst for securing the voting rights of black Americans in Mississippi and beyond. And what's most astounding to me in all of this is how she took up this fight for justice without hating the unjust. She consistently showed her enemies grace and forgiveness. She would often say, you can't love God and hate. And she practiced what she preached.

She prayed for her enemies just like Jesus commands us to do in Matthew five. She was a living example of Micah six eight, which says, he has told you, oh man, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you but to do justice and to love kindness and to walk humbly with your God? But before she was ever on a national platform, Fannie Lou first saw this example in her mom, Ella. Right?

So, what Ella did when almost no one was watching, standing up for justice even though it put herself in danger, her daughter grew up to do while the whole world was watching. And I hope that's an encouragement for moms today who feel like no one, but their kids see the work they're doing inside or maybe even outside of the home. In first Corinthians fifteen fifty-eight, Paul encourages believers to be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord, your labor is not in vain. It was true of Ella Townsend. It was true of Fannie Lou Hamer.

And it's true for believers today. And you don't have to be a civil rights activist to come up against injustice in your workplace or your community. And so, when you do come across it, the world will tell you that the best way to do justice is to publicly shame or cancel the unjust, but God calls us to a different way. He calls us to glorify him by pursuing justice without hating Yeah. The people who are wronging us.

And like Ella Townsend, like Fannie Lou Hamer, we can take a risk to speak out against injustice in our work or community. We can expose the unfruitful works of darkness, see Ephesians five eleven. We can refuse to take revenge against the unjust knowing that vengeance belongs to the Lord. And then, of course, we can pray for the unjust just as Jesus commands us to do.

Meredith Brock: So good.

It's I think we could sit here all day and talk about these inspiring stories and truly be inspired, right? In this moment, I'm like, yes, that is awesome. I am gonna carry a gun in a bucket. Oh, my goodness. Or I'm gonna do you know, I'm gonna stand up to, poor leaders or all that kind of stuff.

And I think having this moment of inspiration is good and we all need it. Yeah. But let's talk to that gal who's listening right now who's like, yes, I know that, like I want my life to matter, to make an impact for the kingdom. But they're like, but how? Like, can we get a little practical here for our listeners?

For mister Rogers, it really was being deeply present with those people. It sounds like even his mom and his dad walking through and connecting with people. For Ella and that story, it kinda sounds like being brave, like standing up. Let's talk a little bit to our listeners about what it looks like practically to lean into what you think God's calling you to do.

Jordan Raynor: Yeah.

Let's do it. So, I love that you pointed to the presence of Fred. Mhmm. Fred was fully present with whoever he was with, and he saw that modeled in Nancy and Jim. Fred was so adamant about dissenting from the kingdom of noise that he once paid to have the radio completely removed from his car.

He's like, I don't need more information. I need time with my lord. Right? So really practically for me, how I'm cultivating this ability to be like Fred, fully present with those that I'm with, this really shows up at home the most. I have gotten in the habit of converting my cell phone into a landline anytime I'm home with my kids and with my wife.

Right? I'll explain what I mean by that in a minute. But I used to be terrible at this. I used to come home from work, where at work I was super focused. Right?

I was doing deep work. I was really focused. But then I got home, and I would have my cell phone in my pocket, and I would constantly be checking exciting emails and Instagram notifications. And I just got convicted. Man, what's more important than the deep work I'm doing discipling my kids and loving my bride?

And so, by God's grace, I've gotten a lot better here. In the past three months, my kids have seen me on my cell phone inside my house one time. I literally have a spreadsheet that's tracking this. And how have I pulled this off? By treating my cell phone like a landline.

So, here's what I do. When I'm home, I keep my cell phone in my master bathroom. Right? So, it's out of sight, out of mind. I turn the ringer on.

I turn the phone on do not disturb. That way, only VIPs in my life can get through. Only their calls, not their texts, not there, you know, notifications, whatever, just phone calls. So, if a VIP like my dad calls, for example, right, I've gotta walk into the master bathroom from wherever I am in the kitchen or whatever, see who's calling, and then make a decision about whether or not I'm gonna answer the phone. But until I hear the ring, my phone is out of my pocket.

It's out of sight, out of mind. Because I could promise you that if my phone is in my pocket, I will check it incessantly even when I don't need to. Why? Because if I'm honest, I got a five-year-old, a five-year-old, eight-year-old, 10-year-old. Sometimes it's a lot more fun to check email than it is to play dress up with my five-year-old for the 500 time.

Right? Can I get an amen? Come on. Right?

Meredith Brock: Absolutely.

Jordan Raynor: So, if you wanna give this a shot, it's really simple. Five steps to convert your cell phone into a landline when you're at home with your kids. Step one, determine where your landline is gonna live in your home. For me, it's my master bathroom. Whatever works for your works.

Step two, build a list of VIPs you will want to answer the phone for. Right? If this friend, if this parent, if this boss, whatever, is gonna call me, I wanna answer the phone for them. Step three, add those VIPs to your favorites list if you're an iPhone user or your people list if you're an Android user. Step four, give your VIPs a heads up to call you if they need something urgent.

Don't text. Don't email. And then finally, step five, hang up your phone for an hour or two at a time. I promise the world will keep spinning because you are not the Christ, and neither am I. Right?

But if we wanna live our lives like Christ, like Fred Rogers being fully present with whoever's in front of us, we've gotta find ways to descend from the kingdom of noise. So, I hope that practice gives you one way to do that in our modern context.

Kaley Olson: Yeah. I love it. I think one thing is I'm kind of one thing I'm thinking about as we are landing the plane here is, this what I'm gonna say is kind of a little sobering for me right now because my grandmother is in kind of like this probably last stage of her life and she's talking about selling her house and moving into, like an assisted living facility because she needs help.

And she said something the other night to my dad, and she was like, you know, you guys can take whatever furniture you want and do all that. And I was like, Man, she's there. She's at the point in her life where she has lived a full life. She's a wonderful Christian woman. And it's down to furniture.

And I know we're all thinking like, Ma'am, oh, we don't care about the furniture. We just want we wanna remember you. And I think for people who are listening right now, especially for moms who are just like, Man, I just wanna make a difference. I wanna make an impact on my kid's life. What are my kids gonna say about me?

There are probably people who are living, as best as they can with the ability to, like, glorify God in all they say they do, but their kids might not be living a life that the mom would have hoped for them to live. And I think that that's hard because we can look at a message like Five Mere Christians or even read about people in the Bible. We're like, Man, they were awesome. And there's this tendency, I think, we have to be like, what are my what are my kids gonna say about me one day? But that's not what it's about.

It's not about that. At the end of the day, us living a life, even in the faith and work movement or whatever we do, is really about God. At the end of the day, the results are not up to us. And what our kids say about us aren't up to us. So, as we wrap up, will you speak to that woman?

It could be you, Jordan, or you, Kayleigh, who's feeling discouraged that I've put in so much work, but I just know my legacy really might end with me. How do I still keep going and glorifying God whenever nobody might remember one day?

Jordan Raynor: Yeah. Yeah. It's good.

Kayleigh Cox: We didn't talk about the story today, but you're reminding me of one other mom we almost shared today, and its C.S. Lewis's mom. Okay. Flora is her name, and she passed away when C.S. Lewis was nine years old. Wow. And when she was on her deathbed, in her last days, she made her husband leave what she didn't wanna do and go find two Bibles to give to her two sons as a parting gift.

And I can I cried writing that part of the book because you can feel this desperation of her wanting to know that her faith legacy is gonna live on and that she's gonna leave this with her children? Yeah. But that is not how that story goes. Right after right after she passed away, C.S. Lewis walked away from the faith altogether. Mhmm.

He became an atheist. He became a drunkard. He became a sadomasochist. He had an affair, an extended affair with his dead best friend's mom after World War two for years. People think of him as this, you know, the author of Mere Christianity, but he walked away from the faith for a very long time.

And the reason I shared that story is to say it was the Lord, not Flora, that brought C.S. Lewis unto himself. And Flora gave her five loaves and two fish. He she gave her best, but it wasn't her effort that saved her son. It was the grace of Jesus in his timing and in his way and for his glory. And so, yeah, I just would wanna encourage that mom that that's I understand.

I'd have very close friends and family that are walking through that, and it's a heartbreaking, scary place to be. But the holy spirit is in charge of bringing people to God, not you. And your efforts to just love that child the way God has loved you, that's your five loaves and two fish. That's your that's your Bible on the deathbed. And anything that comes from that is from the Lord.

Kaley Olson: Yeah. That's so good.

Jordan Raynor: There's this John Piper quote I think about almost every day. He says, my job is faithfulness, God's job is fruitfulness. That's right.

Mhmm. I'm tempted to forget that a lot. We are called to be faithful to do the work. God is responsible for 100% of the results, not 50%, not 90%. A 100% of the results are in his hands, and whatever results he produces, blessed be the name of the Lord.

Let's you and I focus on faithfulness in what whatever work that is that God has placed in our hands, whether that's work that is paid or unpaid. Mhmm.

Meredith Brock: Wow. What a great way to end this conversation because we can be inspired by these stories, but if we are doing it for anyone else's glory, but the Lord Jesus Christ alone, we're doing it for the wrong reasons. Uh-huh.

We live for an audience of one. Mhmm. An audience of one. Yep. We're so grateful to have gotten to learn from you guys today on the podcast.

Jordan and Kayleigh, thank you so much for being here. For our friends listening, we wanna be sure you get their book, Five Mere Christians. And if you're listening in real time, come join us in Circle thirty-one Book Club. It starts August 1 as we walk through this book together in community. We've linked that information for you in the show notes.

Kaley Olson: Alright. That's it. Thanks for joining us today, friends, at Proverbs thirty-one Ministries. We believe when you know the truth and live the truth that changes everything.