"Finding Inner Peace" With Dr. Joel Muddamalle and Lysa TerKeurst
Kaley Olson:
Hi, friends. Welcome back to The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast where we share biblical Truth for any girl in any season. I'm your host, Kaley Olson, and I'm here with my co-host for today, Kendra LeGrand.
Kendra LeGrand:
Yay. Hey, Kaley.
Kaley Olson:
Hey, Kendra. How’re you doing?
Kendra LeGrand:
I'm doing well. Yeah.
Kaley Olson:
Great.
Kendra LeGrand:
Having a good morning.
Kaley Olson:
That's great.
Kendra LeGrand:
Or afternoon, whenever you're listening to this.
Kaley Olson:
Whenever you're listening to this, but we are recording in the morning. I've already had my coffee ready to go for today.
Kendra LeGrand:
Good for you, Kaley.
Kaley Olson:
For those of you who do not know Kendra by now, I mean her name is familiar, but I just have to introduce you again. Kendra works at Proverbs 31 in many capacities, but right now her main job is overseeing our brand-new book club called Circle 31.
Kendra LeGrand:
Yes.
Kaley Olson:
Whew, Kendra. We have officially launched a book club, and we are so excited that over 30,000 people have joined us on this journey so far, which I can't get over that. A lot of times, we'll say, "Can you imagine if 30,000 people just showed up to our office parking lot?" It would be wild.
Kendra LeGrand:
It'd be wild. I think the other wild thing is people are giving us their time.
Kaley Olson:
Yeah.
Kendra LeGrand:
30,000 people are like, "You know what? I'm interested." When there's so many other things that people can commit to ... that is also wild to me.
Kaley Olson:
100%. Will you share what's been your favorite part of the Circle 31 Book Club so far?
Kendra LeGrand:
Yes. OK, I love reading women's comments because we talk about a lot in Circle 31 Book Club, which is great. I love reading what women are thinking through or talking about. Then also, this one lady said, "He knew exactly what I need" — meaning he is gone — "and when I needed it. As I am just weeks away from entering my 40s, I have a feeling that this group is going to help me immensely in my search for community relationships and ultimately being truly fulfilled in God."
I love that when we were thinking through book club and what it was going to be, this woman put it into words, and we're like, "Yes, that's what we were hoping for."
Kaley Olson:
Yeah, I love that. Community relationships and ultimately being truly fulfilled in God. The purpose of book club is to help women walk through books that address things that are happening in their life.
Kendra LeGrand:
Yes.
Kaley Olson:
Which ... there's so many amazing books out there. We have such big plans for book club, but I just love that you guys are using this as an opportunity to really coach people along where they are and [inaudible] work through something together.
Kendra LeGrand:
Yes. You're definitely not alone, and we ultimately want everybody to grow, even if it's just a tiny bit in their relationship with the Lord or with the struggle they're facing ... just grow in perspective. There's a lot of good things happening.
Kaley Olson:
That's the heart of Proverbs 31 right there, for sure.
Kendra LeGrand:
That is the part of who we are.
Kaley Olson:
Today we're on The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast. You're with me today because we've got a different type of episode, but I'm just going to tell you, spoiler alert, it's going to be one that you get a lot out of. We recently recorded a Q&A between Lysa TerKeurst and Dr. Joel Muddamalle hosted by our friend Shae Hill, who we know and love. What a trio!
Kendra LeGrand:
They're great.
Kaley Olson:
Many of you know Dr. Joel Muddamalle released a brand-new book, his first ever, earlier this year called The Hidden Peace, Finding True Security, Strength and Confidence Through Humility. In today's conversation, you're going to hear Lysa and Joel talk through a lot of questions but specifically why humility is so important for today's generation to pursue but in a very down to earth and relatable way, which I think is the stickler —
Kendra LeGrand:
Yes.
Kaley Olson:
— with humility.
Kendra LeGrand:
That's the killer, because humility ... it's not a natural conversation you're having with your friend like, "Let's chat about humility today." There's ways it does show up and the way pride shows up that actually is very relevant.
Kaley Olson:
Yeah, absolutely. What I got out of this conversation is that it addresses the burden we carry when we're trying to do it all and be it all and running at a breakneck pace looking for peace, but it seems impossible to find when ... That really is pride — us thinking that we can do it all.
Kendra LeGrand:
We can do it all.
Kaley Olson:
Which we'll get to that. What if we told you after today's conversation, you're going to find that instead of trying to cover up your faults, you can choose the way of humility that Jesus modeled? This conversation is so full of goodness, and I just can't wait for people to hear it.
Kendra LeGrand:
I had to get out my Notes app on my phone and take down notes.
Kaley Olson:
Yep, it's great.
Kendra LeGrand:
But, you guys, I'm also pumped to announce that The Hidden Peace is going to be the next book club pick, and we're going to read it together starting July 1. We believe in this message so much that we chose to walk through it together, because like I said, Circle 31 isn't a place where you're going to be siloed. We're going to handle it and walk through it together. July 1 is when it starts. All you need to do is sign up for Circle 31 Book Club. It is free, and grab a copy of the book. Both links are in the show notes, just so you can get it. Circle31.org is where it's going to happen.
Kaley Olson:
Yeah. Very easy. Or you can just go to Circle31.org —
Kendra LeGrand:
True.
Kaley Olson:
— if you're not driving right now. Please don't hurt yourself.
Kendra LeGrand:
Yes.
Kaley Olson:
Guys, without further ado, here is today's episode. I hope listening to Lysa and Joel talk about this book makes you so pumped to join us to read The Hidden Peace together. As always, hang tight because Kendra and I have a few things to talk about afterward.
Shae Hill:
So excited to be here today. Lysa, we wanted to include you just because obviously we know when it comes to writing a book, it takes a village, but also you wrote the forward for this book, which is really exciting.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I did. I did. Such an honor. I told Joel today this is role reversal because he has been there to support me with so many of my projects, which I'm so grateful for. So today, it's such an honor and a joy to be able to celebrate his book release.
Joel Muddamalle:
Thanks, Lysa.
Shae Hill:
Exactly. We're here, all of our staff is here, you can't see them, but we're all here today celebrating Joel and this amazing book. We just thought that it would be fun today to dive into a couple of questions that we want to ask you guys. I'm going to go ahead and jump in. Number one, what makes a book on humility a right-now message in 2024?
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, I think I need to start with a little bit of vulnerability. The vulnerability is, this wasn't the message. Actually, I don't even think I told both of you guys how the origin story of all this came about. This wasn't the message I wanted to write. I don't know if I'm supposed to say that. It was actually the message that I put with a bunch of other messages that I thought for sure nobody's going to this message. This is not the one, so this is going to make the other one sound really good.
Then as we went through the whole process, it was this almost group experience where it's like, wait a minute, this is kind of like what my heart longs for. This is kind of the thing that I'm desperate for to experience peace and experience stability and experience security. Humility — is that the thing that actually could provide this for us? I don't know about you guys, but I don't remember the last time somebody was just running around with a flag of humility like, "This is the thing that I'm going to champion today."
And yet, the Scriptures consistently through Genesis Chapter 1 and 2 all the way through the book of Revelation point out the power of humility. I don't know about you, but I think we live in a world that's just so filled with fear. Around every corner, around every turn, we're just wondering, When is the next harmful and hurtful thing going to happen? When is the next thing going to shake my world to a point where I just don't know ... Can I get through this? Can I make it to the other side? You may even have doubts with God like, God, why would You allow such bad things to happen to such humble people, such good people?
The good news is that the Scriptures actually give us so many of those answers, and they walk through it with us. I think that's one of the reasons why this is a today message, because there's no end to fear and insecurity and worry about my weakness, and yet there's an answer to it, which is the power of humility.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I love that the promise of the book is peace, because peace can seem quite impossible today because each new day is going to bring trouble of its own. Jesus said, "In this world, you will have trouble." Now, I won't ask for a show of hands, but if you're in the privacy of your own home, if you have ever felt like each day has its own trouble, just ... Yep, so I'm right there with you. It can be really daunting, because how do you go out and create a peaceful environment for yourself to live in when there's so many external forces that are doing everything to your life except bring peace to it?
I love that Joel has pointed out this crucial pathway, and it's not just a pathway of bowing low, which is often what we think about when we think of humility. We may even think of it as being in a position of weakness, but it's not a position of weakness. It's actually a position of great strength. It is the only way that we can absolutely have peace in a moment, no matter what the chaos is around. The Lord has instructed us; He wants us on our face before Him. That is the safest place of peace: when we're on our face before Him.
There's two pathways to get there. We can walk the pathway of humiliation and trip and fall there, or we can walk the pathway of humility. The only difference is one chooses to bow low while the other trips and falls there, but we both wind up on our face before the Lord. That is the safest place of peace, when we're that humbled and just surrendered to the Lord. Surrender is a big part of humility.
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the things that I found that was just so fascinating was that — and this was in the research process — you think about going to humility and all of these other passages, and we got there with Philippians 2:8-9, but, Lysa, one of the things that you've done for me is you've opened up my eyes to the beauty of Genesis 1, 2 and 3. Forever, I will be indebted to you for that.
The thing that I found though was just so fascinating of ... OK, what is the payoff of humility that Adam and Eve — this is fascinating, y'all — in Genesis 1 and 2 were actually in a true posture of humility. Think about this. They were in a place of vulnerability. They were dependent on God. They still had to eat. All of the tree was good for them to eat. Just this one, don't eat of this one, which has to make you wonder, Did they get hungry in Eden? Well, probably because they had to eat. This is actually the evidence of weakness, and yet there's dependence because God actually gave them everything that they needed.
I did an interesting study on the word “vulnerability.” It comes from a Latin noun and a verb, which means to be wounded. The fascinating thing about Adam and Eve is that in the Garden of Eden, they were in the perfect posture, perfect position of humility where they didn't have to be wounded by anything outside, but the one place that they could be wounded was from within. They wounded themselves in that. And yet, it's this place of humility that's in Genesis 1 and 2 that God actually wants to invite us to go back to.
What is it that happens when we experience this peace that comes from humility? It's actually a regaining of our true humanity. We get to return to that Edenic vision, to that place where we are dependent on God, that we can embrace our limitations because we know that God is limitless in what He offers to us. That is the place where we actually experience true lasting peace that is not conditioned on the hard and harmful things that happen but actually walks us through all of that. In the process, we actually become more our true humanity.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I love that so much, Joel. I am really convinced that this world and me and probably a lot of you watching, we need this message right now because there's such a shortage of peace, and I have never made the connection before between humility and peace. So thank you.
Shae Hill:
That's so good. I love hearing the background of how you traveled to write this book. It sounds like it is a life message for you, but like Lysa said, it's also a right-now message for us. This next question is a little bit more practical now that we've got the biblical foundation for humility. In the book, you talk about how humility is a gift. How have you seen the gift of humility help you in your relationships, marriage or even parenting?
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, if you want to know about marriage and parenting, my wife and my kids are right there. We could bring them up, and they would give you a master class on —
Shae Hill:
They might humble you right here. Right here and right now.
Joel Muddamalle:
They have been. They have been. I think in Greek, it's like the perfect tense. It's an action that started and continues to happen, but that's just I'm a nerd. Here's what I found about humility that has been so powerful for me — is that the opposite of humility, as we would know, is pride. What does pride do to us? Pride promises the presence of clarity but only delivers on confusion and chaos. All along the way, pride's like "You can see clear. You can be more beautiful. You can experience all the things that your heart longs for," but in so doing, it actually takes your large vision, and it zeros it down on what I refer to the unholy trinity of me, myself and I.
A very practical thing that humility does for us is it actually gives us the gift of self-awareness. It actually opens our eyes back up. You might be wondering like Joel, what is humility? I've talked about humility as a three-part movement. Humility is first and foremost knowing God. There's this famous quote, "Humility isn't thinking less of ourselves; it's thinking of ourselves less often." Just so you guys know, that is historically attributed to C.S. Lewis. Incredibly dangerous to disagree with C.S. Lewis — just letting you know. I'm not going to disagree with him, but I am going to suggest maybe that's not the place that we start with humility.
Actually, I think it starts with God. We start with an awareness of who God is because if we can know who God is, then we can know who we rightly are. We're children of God made in His likeness and in His image, and, y'all, if we know who God is and now we know who we are, we're properly equipped to rightly relate to other people. The product of this type of understanding and self-awareness will produce peace: peace in our lives and peace in the relationships that we're in. Along the way, you get to see the beauty of the horizon that's in front of you that pride is actually trying to rob you of. I would say self-awareness is a massive takeaway for it.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I think pride diminishes the best of who we are, even though I think sometimes it would appear that pride is like, "Oh, I'm going to be puffed up, and I'm going to be big, and I'm going to be accomplished, and I'm going to beat everyone else because I'm going to show I'm great." But it really does diminish the best of who we are because the best of who we are is when we look most like God, our Father, and we are demonstrating the fruit of the Spirit. When I think of humility, I think humility born out of biblical wisdom.
I'm not talking about a false kind of humility that is just shrinking back, but I think biblically wise humility is really demonstrating the best of who we are because humility and the fruit of the Spirit — love, joy, peace, patience — it all goes hand in hand. I think sometimes it's good to ask ourselves, "Do I want a diminished reality of who I am?" Then let my pride respond in this situation. Or "Do I want the best of who I am?" Then respond in humility.
Shae Hill:
Yeah. That's so good. I'm glad that you pointed out what we sometimes think pride is because I was in a meeting the other day, and we were talking about your book, and we were just talking about not always ... pride doesn't always present itself as this overconfident person. I think for me, pride presents itself in my love for control. That's where pride comes in for me. It doesn't always look like the loudest person in the room or maybe the person that looks like they're the most self-promotional or whatever. It can look like control, but even my love for control is keeping me from being the best version of myself like you're talking about.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I think the ultimate display of pride is when we want to tell God what really should happen in a situation like this —
Shae Hill:
Which is like textbook control.
Lysa TerKeurst:
— mask in ... masked in prayer requests —
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, all day, every day.
Lysa TerKeurst:
— masked in suggestions to God.
Shae Hill:
Great ideas, right? Yeah.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Then we want to hold God accountable to what we really already have deemed is best. I think that's an ultimate demonstration. You're right, it comes back to control because what we don't trust, we will control.
Shae Hill:
Absolutely.
Joel Muddamalle:
I think one of the things that's important even about that is just acknowledging that there is an innate desire that we have as humans for self-preservation. That's what control is. That's what strength is. That's what desire and stability is. It's like I want to make it; I want to persevere through this, but there's a difference between a God-dependent perseverance versus a self-preservation type of perseverance. The more that we tried to manhandle by our own will ... We had a study day once, Lysa and Leah's over here, and we were looking at the image or the metaphor of pulling yourself up by the bootstraps. Remember that?
Have y'all ever tried to actually do this?
Shae Hill:
No.
Joel Muddamalle:
It's impossible.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah, it's literally not physically possible —
Joel Muddamalle:
Right.
Lysa TerKeurst:
— to pull yourself up by the bootstraps.
Shae Hill:
Did you guys try this?
Lysa TerKeurst:
No, but we looked it up. It's ergonomically —
Shae Hill:
Oh, OK.
Joel Muddamalle:
It's ergonomically, scientifically —
Shae Hill:
I was about to say, I'm sad I missed that one.
Joel Muddamalle:
— psychologically, neurologically, and “spiritual-logically” — that's a made-up word — but a spiritual —
Lysa TerKeurst: We really should have on boots.
Joel Muddamalle:
We should have.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I didn't have any that would fit you though.
Joel Muddamalle:
No, that's not ... I don't think I even own a pair of boots. I'll have to borrow Michael's boots for that. Think about this is the gift of humility. The gift of humility is like, wait a minute, there are boots and there are bootstraps, and if I try to pull myself up by my own bootstraps, this is maddening. This is chaos making. What pride does to us is it sets us into a spiral that will eventually spiral us out of control. The whole while, we're like, “I can do it; I can do it," and you're like, "No, you can't do it, but there's really good news. You didn't have to do it because Jesus did it."
Jesus in the incarnation, Philippians 2:8-9, that He took on humanity because, y'all, if Jesus wasn't fully human and fully God, the incarnation would've been rigged. The whole thing would've been rigged. He actually humbled Himself truly by taking on humility. Then the payoff is He was exalted. There's a “therefore” in the text that says: therefore, in light of His humility, He was exalted and seated at the right hand of the Father. By the way, [according to] Ephesians Chapter 2 and 3, where do we sit when we give our lives to Jesus? We sit at the right hand of the Father. What is the pathway to this type of exaltation? It's the beauty of humility. That's what leads us through this journey.
Shae Hill:
Yeah, that's so good. OK, a little bit ago, you mentioned this word “self-awareness,” and my next question has potential to be a little spicy, maybe ruffle some feathers. As we get in the pages of The Hidden Peace, and we're on this journey to learning about the gift of humility, what do we do when we're mid-reading this book and we are interacting with someone who thinks that they're humble but their actions and words reveal that they're lacking self-awareness in this area? How do we have a humble reaction to others who may be lacking in humility?
Joel Muddamalle:
I can give you a real-life example. Here's a story. I'll let you guys determine who the humble one was in the story and who was lacking awareness. My wife, Britt, and I, we were going on a trip. Very rare for us. We've got four little kids; it's very rare for us to actually do a trip, just the two of us. We're going on this trip, and I travel quite a bit, and so I've got TSA PreCheck on my deal. Why are y'all laughing? I don't know why everybody's laughing.
Shae Hill:
Because I know where this is going.
Joel Muddamalle:
No, I'm just saying ... this is just a very real story.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I don't even know the story, but I know who the humble one was already.
Joel Muddamalle:
OK, so let me just tell my story. We're going on this trip, and here's the thing: Every time we travel as a family, almost always the whole family's thing goes with the TSA PreCheck, and we all go. It's just a beautiful situation. In this situation, mine had the glorious TSA PreCheck sign, and Britt's for some reason did not have it. We're walking, and she's trying to help me this whole time like, "Hey babe, just so you know, mine ..." I'm like, "It's OK. Come on. We got to go. We got to get through the line." I have a destination in mind.
We get there, and the lady at the TSA PreCheck line looks at me, and she goes ... I'm like, "Absolutely, I know." I show her, and she's like, "All right, you can go through." Then Britt shows the card, and then she goes, "Uh-uh. You got to go to general." I look back, and I'm like, "Oh, you don't have TSA PreCheck?" She goes, "I've been trying to tell you I don't have TSA PreCheck." I look at her, and I say, "I guess I'll see you on the other side then."
Shae Hill:
Oh, you said, “See you at the gate?” Oh, no.
Lysa TerKeurst:
No, he didn't, because then she said, "No, I won't see you at the gate."
Joel Muddamalle:
Y'all, I feel like I am being incredibly humble. I am so unaware of the situation. I'm like, "Oh, yeah, I'll just go through." It feels very practical and very pragmatic, and you can go through your deal, and then we're going to get to the place on ... Here's what Britt did for me, and it flexes every now and then for different people, but this was mine. She looked at me, and I swear she was looking into my soul, and after about, this many, 15 years of marriage and being together, I knew I had made a very serious error in my life.
She said, "Excuse me?" To which I said, "We both will go through the general screening, won't we?" She said, "Yes, we will." And we stood in silence. You know that line was long. That line was so long. It was so long, but every step that I took, I was aware of my pride, I was aware of my arrogance, [and] I became more aware. At the end of it, we had a hard conversation, but it was a good conversation. Here was the invitation. You see, what Britt did for me was she didn't shame me into it. I actually felt the guilt of it in just environmentally in the situation already.
Then she just had patience with me to walk through it, and I learned something really important. For me, the goal of that trip was to get to the destination. For my wife, the goal of that trip was the relationship in between the destination. When you're dealing with somebody that is lacking this part of it, our tendency is like "How do we show them? How can we prove to them that they're being prideful and they don't have any humility?" Often what it is, is actually being patient and pausing and allowing that environment to prick the conscious, to allow the Holy Spirit to start to do some work.
Then if that doesn't work, because sometimes it doesn't work, it starts with some questions like, "Hey, how do you think that might have made me feel?" And walk them through that process and determine their willingness to, in humility, work through it or their decision to be unable to see it. Y'all, we cannot force people into seeing something that they're not willing to see themselves. That's where I have a whole chapter on humble boundaries in the book, where humility without boundaries actually creates a concrete heart.
God does not want a concrete heart for us. Humility with boundaries though, it actually creates a soft heart that stays firm in decision-making and in boundaries but keeps it relationally positive.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I think too, especially, I'm thinking of that situation and the beautiful thing about that everyday story is I think everyone can relate to being Brittany but also can relate to being you, because I have enough selfishness inside of me where I will like, "Yeah, I'll meet you on the other side," even though I'm scolding you, but I'm thinking, You know what, but for a little more self-awareness, I could do that same exact thing. Maybe just play it out in a different scenario. I appreciate your vulnerability in sharing that story.
Love is supposed to be seeking one another's highest good. If we have that mentality, that is walking in humility inside of a relationship, that again will equate to more peace in the relationship. I think a lot of us have a lot of anxiety, and I'm not going to put this on you. I'm saying I can have a lot of anxiety, and sometimes I have legitimate reasons because there really is something to be afraid of. But sometimes it's because I get so in my head about the way things should be, the way something should be, the way a scenario should be between two people, that it gives this enormous amount of energy inside of me, this feeling of anxiety.
To me, it really is energy that just doesn't have a place to go. When I think about the peace that humility gives us, it would drive me to say I know what to do with my anxiety before I get frustrated with another person or get frustrated in the TSA line or get frustrated because I'm going to have to wait in that other long line. It gives me a place.
Joel Muddamalle:
It was long, Lysa.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I understand, honey, you made that point for sure.
Shae Hill:
We honor you for going through general security.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Like you said, every step you took was an opportunity to work on your pride. I think sometimes the anxiety inside of me ... it's because someone else isn't doing what I think they should do, but the real issue is that I'm not seeking the other person's highest good. I really do think that so many of these things that we feel, "Oh, that's unfair. I have TSA. I just want to get through so I can go get a coffee," which I know is your real motivation in that situation, right?
Joel Muddamalle:
I mean, maybe there was a Starbucks waiting on the opposite side of the —
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yes, and surely you were going to get Brittany a coffee, so you were rushing —
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, [inaudible] caramel macchiato.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah, you were rushing through so you could get her a coffee, surely.
Joel Muddamalle:
Surely.
Lysa TerKeurst:
But —
Joel Muddamalle:
Believing in each other's highest good.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Or seeking each other's highest good.
Joel Muddamalle:
Right.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I do think that sometimes if we feel anxiety, maybe we need to ask ourselves, "What is really stealing my peace right now?" Many times, I've found it's because I'm demonstrating a lack of humility.
Shae Hill:
That's good. The everyday example that you gave of the airport, which we're not putting you on blast ... we all have our own examples with that. What I'm wondering is: With this humility message, do you feel like humility is ever something that we graduate from? Is this something we pursue our entire lives? What does that look like as we lean into this message, engage with these truths, and then kind of carry on for the rest of our lives?
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, there's this fascinating passage in Galatians 5. Lysa, you already described it and mentioned it as the fruit of the Spirit. Paul uses this agricultural imagery, and it's really fascinating, but it leaves you wondering like, OK, you've got the fruit of the Spirit — love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness and gentleness — and yet what is the soil that the fruit is actually planted in? Here's a fascinating thing. The Greek word for humility is [Greek], and in the Greco-Roman world, the context of the New Testament, this word was almost overwhelmingly exclusively negative.
If you walked into a coffee shop and they said, "Oh, Shae, you're [Greek]," everybody would stare at you like you had the Scarlet Letter. Absolutely, they would walk away. They would want nothing to do with you. Here's Paul to the church in Ephesus and to the church in Corinth and the church in Galatia, it's like all these letters of ... he writes and he says, "And take on humility, associate with the humble." Then in Philippians 2:8-9, "Be like Christ who was humble."
And so it's like, OK, well what actually is the soil for the Spirit? I've come to the conclusion that humility is actually the soil of the Christian life. Y'all, the Christian life is slow growth. We live in a society that wants instant gratification. There's this thing called instant coffee, and it tries to tempt you to believe that it's good. It's not. Nothing good about instant coffee. The Christian life ... We want to go around things. We want to go under things. Lysa, you and I have talked in great detail about what I believe is the most important preposition throughout the Bible: the preposition "through."
It was necessary for the Israelites to go through the wilderness, to go through the Red Sea, to go through and into the Promised Land, for Jesus to go through Samaria, for Jesus to go through the cross. The story of Jesus doesn't stop at the cross; it goes through so we can get to the ascension. Why is the through necessary? Because in the through process, we're actually regaining our humanity. We're learning dependence on God. We're experiencing the power of His peace in the midst of really hard and harmful things.
Is humility something that we checklist and move on? No, because humility is the soil of the Christian life that we ought to cultivate. I do not have a green thumb. I don't know what the opposite of a green thumb is, but that's what I’ve got. I can't help things live for the life of me, but I got this one curry plant. I'm Indian. Did y'all know I'm Indian?
Shae Hill:
I did.
Joel Muddamalle:
OK.
Shae Hill:
Thank you for clarifying that.
Joel Muddamalle:
You're welcome. I'm Indian, and in Indian food, curry leaves are very important for the base of the curry. My uncle Calvin, he got me this curry plant, and, y'all, it has taken the life of me to keep this thing alive. Here's why, oftentimes I neglect the soil that it's in. My children have this fascinating way to put toys and all kinds of random stuff into the soil of this curry plant. Here's the thing: Anytime something gets into the soil that compromises the integrity of that soil, it directly impacts the fruit of what grows from it.
Humility is the soil of the Christian life that we have to consistently go back to and tend to and consider. In that consideration, we want to just be reminded that this is worthy work, and it's producing something good in us for us.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Joel, I think you just said a really, really big statement. I think, if anything, the book is a right-now message because every Christian needs to tend to the soil of their life. I know sometimes it might feel like, "Oh, humility, yeah, I'll read that book one day," but I think what you just said should be a driving force for us to all read it today because not only will it help us be more self-aware of where we're lacking in humility, but you give us the biblical theology to know how to grow in our humility. I'm just so thankful for that.
Shae Hill:
Yeah, that's so good. I feel like that really segues us into our last question. What is the danger of not intentionally pursuing humility?
Joel Muddamalle:
I think the danger of a lack of humility is actually self-exaltation and self-glorification. You see, you and I were never intended to be absorbers of glory. We're always intended to be reflectors of God's glory. God made us uniquely, perfectly to reflect His glory. When we try to absorb something that is not ours, it is destructive 100% of the time. Here's the thing: I don't think anybody wakes up one day and just says, "I'm going to blow up my whole life today." Nobody wakes up one day and says, "Oh, today's the day that I'm just going to destroy my family or hurt my closest friends." They don't do that.
Here's what it does look like. It's small compromises in decisions that turn into long-term character compromises in their life. And so, not cultivating the soil of humility, not having the family of God around you that cares about you in your heart and your sanctification growing the likeness and image of Jesus, these things will leave you on an island by yourself where you will begin to drink your own Kool-Aid. You will believe your own hype, and that is a dangerous place to be because in that place, there's no room for God and His glory.
We have to always remember that we are citizens of a Kingdom. We are not kings in the Kingdom. We're citizens, and there's a King who sits on the throne, and that King who sits on the throne invites us to be His royal children, but we are children, and He is the father.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I think that's so important. I’ve said it before and I'll say it again: I really do think pride is a quick path to a diminished life. Humility is the beautiful, slow walk of growing more and more like Christ and having your world expanded because the joy of the Lord can be your strength and also because when we're living out the fruit of the spirit, people are attracted to us. People are not attracted to pride, but good people attract good people. I want to be a person who has the expanded life. I want to live life to the fullest, and the only way to do that is my continued pursuit.
I say continued pursuit because I have not perfected this at all. None of us have. That's another thing that I really appreciate in your book, Joel. You are very honest about your own struggle with this, your own wrestling with this. That's why I think you were the perfect person to write this book because you write it with the appropriate angst and at the same time the solid theological wisdom that we all need.
Kaley Olson:
OK, Kendra.
Kendra LeGrand:
Yes.
Kaley Olson:
And our friends listening, I have a confession to make in the spirit of humility.
Kendra LeGrand:
OK. I'm excited for it.
Kaley Olson:
You know how Joel got roasted basically earlier in the conversation about leaving Brittany, his wife, in the non-TSA PreCheck line at the airport?
Kendra LeGrand:
Yes, I do.
Kaley Olson:
Man, when we were actually sitting in that recording, I was like, "Wait a minute ... I've actually done this."
Kendra LeGrand:
Are you Joel or Brittany?
Kaley Olson:
I'm Joel.
Kendra LeGrand:
OK. You were like, "Hey, Jared, I'll see you on the other side."
Kaley Olson:
I have done that to my husband before. Jared does not listen to this podcast, but if he did, “Sorry, Jared.” Here's the thing. We actually talked about it, and he was OK with me —
Kendra LeGrand:
Oh, he did not mind.
Kaley Olson:
No, he didn't mind because we made the agreement that I would go get the coffee.
Kendra LeGrand:
So there was a perk.
Kaley Olson:
Yeah, there was a perk. We divided and conquered, and it was in the spirit of efficiency, but I felt a little called out there, and my pride was in check. I felt like I needed to have a moment of confession with our friends, but that's not the only thing I took away from that.
Kendra LeGrand:
That's a good thing.
Kaley Olson:
There was a lot.
Kendra LeGrand:
Yeah, there are a lot.
Kaley Olson:
I know. I think that there's a lot of moments we all have.
Kendra LeGrand:
I think that shows how relatable the topic is.
Kaley Olson:
Oh, 100%.
Kendra LeGrand:
You can come out in different relationships [inaudible].
Kaley Olson:
100% ... 100%.
Kendra LeGrand:
That just makes it human.
Kaley Olson:
But seriously though, here I have a couple of things that I took away from this conversation that I want to call out. First of all, the point that Joel made about humility being the soil that the fruits of the spirit grow in, and that often it means slow growth, which ironically is something we talk about in book club all the time.
Kendra LeGrand:
We do. Yeah. Growth isn't going to happen right away.
Kaley Olson:
Yeah, growth is slow.
Kendra LeGrand:
It's step by step.
Kaley Olson:
Growth is slow. Joel talked about the preposition "through" here being vital, not getting just around it or getting over it but having to go through things with humility and not rush through them. That's how we notice the growth happening.
Kendra LeGrand:
Yeah, but that doesn't go ... Our human nature is to either come up with a quicker way to do something or to come up with just something around a way that we do something. It goes against who we are, but there's something really good about going slow and actually taking in what we're learning for sure.
Kaley Olson:
Yeah, 100%. I actually was watching this random video on ... It was the Bible app today. That's where I watched it. Wow.
Kendra LeGrand:
Good job, Kaley.
Kaley Olson:
Wow, I sound really spiritual. I'm not this spiritual all the time. What was interesting is that the guy who was giving the teaching today talked about vines in Italy that grow on the side of a cliff in the harshest conditions —
Kendra LeGrand:
Interesting.
Kaley Olson:
— grow the strongest and produce the best fruit, but the fruit is only recognized as good after the vine has been there for 15 years. The vine has to establish, but then everybody knows that that vine now is a trustworthy source of fruit.
Kendra LeGrand:
15 years?
Kaley Olson:
15 years is a long time.
Kendra LeGrand:
Wow.
Kaley Olson:
I feel like a lot of times what the Lord does in your heart is it's not a monthly checklist thing. We can never really ask God how long something is going to happen. But I think keeping the posture of humility and knowing that, gosh, what I'm going through, as long as I stay with it and I'm with the Lord and I'm paying attention to what He's doing —
Kendra LeGrand:
Right, there's something on the other side.
Kaley Olson:
— then I can learn along the way. I think when we go through things, it also softens our heart to be more mindful of the things that others are going through.
Kendra LeGrand:
That's very true, Kaley. It does give us that compassion for other people.
Kaley Olson: It does. Another thing we've talked about at Proverbs a lot recently, and I know you guys are talking about within the book club too, getting ready as you prepare for reading in July is hidden pride, where what we're struggling with may not be visible, but it manifests itself in our life through things we may not be aware of, but maybe our friends and our family are aware of it. It's hard to think of everyone walking around these big pride issues, of narcissistic pride issues —
Kendra LeGrand:
Or like self-promotion [inaudible].
Kaley Olson:
— or self-promotion. Yeah, we're not all walking around like that, but we all have something. Recently where I've noticed this is my tendency to want to control and be really, really prepared and account for all of the things. People may or may not know this right now, but I'm actually pregnant. I'm with child. Last night as I was going to sleep, I just had a moment where I felt like God telling me to just breathe and that He sees me and He has compassion on me.
I don't think it's compassion like, "Oh, let me pat Kaley on the top of the head for all she's carrying." In a way, I felt Him say, You've got a lot.
Kendra LeGrand:
Just recognizing it.
Kaley Olson:
You've got a lot. You're literally carrying a child right now, but you're also carrying a whole [lot] of responsibility or carrying mental load. One of the things that I had to remember is that I actually need rest. The amazing thing about what's happening in my body right now is that while I am sleeping, a baby is growing inside of me that I have nothing to do with.
Kendra LeGrand:
It is a wild concept.
Kaley Olson:
I am eating and I am breathing —
Kendra LeGrand:
You're giving the baby all you've got doing it.
Kaley Olson:
— and I am doing what I can to stay healthy, but there's nothing that I can do to make this baby grow inside of me. That was such an example to me about how I really can't do it all, and I've got to keep myself in check there and remind myself that God really is the one in control, and I need to keep that posture of humility.
Kendra LeGrand:
He is ultimately the one in control. That's what I struggle with most, Kaley. You might be wondering, or you heard the conversation and you're like, "OK, humility. I don't really know how that shows up in my life or what that looks like." We knew that might be a question because we also struggled with that, too — us here on the team. And so, we created an assessment —
Kaley Olson:
Oh, I love that.
Kendra LeGrand:
— to help you figure out how pride ... the top three ways pride might show up in your life, which one you might struggle with. It's an assessment that you can take. We have it in Circle 31, so you can take it and figure it out.
Kaley Olson:
And so you only get it if you become a member of Circle 31, is that right?
Kendra LeGrand:
Yes, because that's how we're doing ... We have these things called Grow Groups, and so each Grow Group is going to be one of these three areas: independence, influence, [and] control. They're led by I would say some heavy hitters. We have the CEO of Proverbs 31, Meredith Brock.
Kaley Olson:
Who is the regular co-host of the podcast that we know and love.
Kendra LeGrand:
Yes. You guys know her, and you love her.
Kaley Olson:
Yeah.
Kendra LeGrand:
She was so excited about this message. She was like, "I think I want to lead one." Yesterday, she was talking to our staff, and she was like, "It's going to take a lot for me to be vulnerable about this area I struggle in, but I think there's a lot to learn." Then we also have the author of this book leading a Grow Group, Joel, and then we have myself leading a Grow Group.
What's funny —
Kaley Olson:
What a heavy hitter, Kendra. Such a heavy hitter.
Kendra LeGrand:
I struggle with control too. That's where it shows up in my life a lot. I just got out of counseling, and she reiterated how much I love control and how much the Lord is the one to finish the process, not ourselves. There's a lot that I'm going to be sharing that I'm currently learning as well.
Kaley Olson:
I love that. What I love about that one is that you're cultivating the community and you're not leaving it all up to your book club community friends to figure out what this area is. Let's dig into it a little bit ... about Grow Groups and what they can expect from joining book club, because you have Grow Groups with every book that we read.
Kendra LeGrand:
Yeah [inaudible].
Kaley Olson:
Can you explain ... You said generally there are three Grow Group leaders, but what is the purpose of a Grow Group?
Kendra LeGrand:
Yes, the purpose of a Grow Group is our team reads the book, and then we see specific topics or struggles that are threaded throughout the book, and we're like, "Hey, these would be really good to focus on for the month that we're reading the book," and so we really hone into that struggle in the Grow Group. There's the struggle of what does it look like to want influence in my life and how does pride show up in that? That's a Grow Group. Or what does it look like for the person who struggles to trust others? That's threaded throughout the whole book of The Hidden Peace, so we're doing a Grow Group.
It's just the whole idea of focusing on an area that you want to grow in, and you're guided along with some challenges. It's not all rainbows in there. There's going to be some tough questions you can think through and answer and pray through with the Lord, but the whole idea is that you're not the same at the end of the month as you were at the beginning of the month —
Kaley Olson:
I love that.
Kendra LeGrand:
— because you've grown a little bit.
Kaley Olson:
I love that. And by joining a Grow Group and saying, "This is the area of my life that I'm going to be vulnerable, and say, hey, I need help here," you're doing that with other women, too, and you can cheer each other on as you read through the book and make progress, which is the heartbeat of book club.
OK, Kendra, for this book specifically that we're reading in book club ... so for The Hidden Peace starting in July, what else is special about this book?
Kendra LeGrand:
OK, there's a few things. Number one, we're creating some videos with the author, Joel, where he's going to answer questions that you may have as you read through the book, like why do bad things happen to good people? I think that's a common question that we ask, especially when tragedy strikes. He's going to give a biblical lens to that question. There'll be some videos that you'll see in your Grow Groups. Then also, we have the opportunity, this is pretty cool ... this has not been announced yet, but we're going to sit down with Joel and his wife, Brittany —
Kaley Olson:
Amazing.
Kendra LeGrand:
— at the end of the book, at the end of July, and talk through how we can work through pride and how to show humility in our relationships around us because they're husband and wife and they've walked out the message.
Kaley Olson:
I love that.
Kendra LeGrand:
It's learning the message because it's nothing that you ever get to the end and be like, "I accomplished it."
Kaley Olson:
I love that. Love that you guys are doing such a good job making book club unique to Proverbs and something that we want everybody to be excited about joining. If you're listening to this, and it is after July, maybe it's November or whenever, and you're like, "Oh, man, I missed The Hidden Peace. It's not July anymore." We're on basically every other month book rotation with book club.
Kendra LeGrand:
Correct.
Kaley Olson:
Go to Circle31.org, see what book we're either reading now or what's coming up, and just get plugged into the community. We want you to be part of this because our Circle is not complete without you.
Kendra LeGrand:
It's true.
Kaley Olson:
Yes, but like I said, if you're not a member, just go to Circle31.org. It is absolutely free to sign up, and grab a copy of Joel's book, The Hidden Peace, at P31bookstore.com, or by visiting our show notes. Kendra, thank you for coming on today and walking through this episode —
Kendra LeGrand:
Yes.
Kaley Olson:
— with me and talking about humility. It was a great time. Friends, that is all for today at Proverbs 31 Ministries. We believe when you know the Truth and live the Truth, it changes everything.
