The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast

Kaley Olson:
Hello, friends. Thanks for tuning into The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast, where we share biblical Truth for any girl in any season. I'm your host, Kaley Olson, and I'm here with my co-host and dear friend Wendy Blight.

Wendy Blight:
Hey, Kaley, you and I have talked about how excited we are for our episode today.

Kaley Olson:
So excited.

Wendy Blight:
We just wrapped up with one of our favorite guests and dear friend Max Lucado. Today Max will share some common misconceptions we have about God, especially when it comes to prayer: how He does and doesn't answer prayer and just how we approach God in prayer.

Kaley Olson:
Yeah, it was so good. And really the heart of his message was for those who think that because God hasn't answered their prayers in the way they wanted to, that He's given up on them. And that could not be further from the truth, and that's the good news here. But sometimes, Wendy, I don't know about you, but I need a resource to help guide me through untangling the lie in my head that God has given up on me or He's not answering the prayers and requests that I make. And so we have two resources for you if you also sometimes feel this way as well. The first resource is Max's book, God Never Gives Up on You. And the second resource is a free resource from Proverbs 31 Ministries titled “Chosen, Called & Confident: 5 Days of Believing God Can Use You.” This free resource will help you overcome the lie that you were disqualified by your past as you discover how God can use even your worst mistakes for great impact.

Wendy Blight:
And, Kaley, I want to say that those three words “chosen,” “called” and “confident” are so important. And I think this will be such a blessing to know what those mean and to walk in them and live in them.

Kaley Olson:
Yes, for sure.

Wendy Blight:
And guess what? They're both linked in our show notes, so scroll down once you finish listening. All right, friends, let's jump into our conversation with Max.

Kaley Olson:
Well, Wendy, are you so excited for our guest today?

Wendy Blight:
Yes. Literally it's like Santa Claus almost. I felt like I couldn't sleep because I always get excited —

Kaley Olson:
We'll have to ask him how he feels about being akinned to Santa Claus. But our guest for the day is our friend, Max Lucado. Max, welcome back to the podcast.

Max Lucado:
Oh, man. I feel like Santa Claus, happy and jolly just being here. I probably could relate to the belly too —

Kaley Olson:
Oh my gosh.

Max Lucado:
— the tummy part. But anyway, thank y'all so much. It is a gift for me to be here.

Kaley Olson:
Oh, man, Max, we are so glad to have you back. And before we get into what you're teaching on today, I want to know what is one thing that's bringing you joy in this season of your life?

Max Lucado:
Pregnant daughters. I've got two daughters who are expecting. One is actually in a baby-watch period, due within the next couple of weeks. And then another's due in several months. And so that's brought a lot of excitement. That will be grandchild number three and four to Denalyn and me. And super, super excited. [Crosstalk.]

Kaley Olson:
Wow. That's so exciting. Well, I know family is such a special part of your life, and we value family here at Proverbs. And honestly, Max, you're like family to us. Kind of like we've said it before, like our Proverbs uncle. And I know I speak for our audience when I say we really do love getting to hear from you. Your messages are always ... They're just so relatable and clear for the everyday person who just needs encouragement and a word from the Lord. And so today you're actually here to share something God's been teaching you through your new book, which is titled God Never Gives Up on You: What Jacob's Story Teaches Us About Grace, Mercy, and God's Relentless Love. And I cannot wait to hear your teaching, Max. So take it away.

Max Lucado:
Well, thank you. Thank you so much. I'll just jump right in.

Kaley Olson:
Sounds great.

Max Lucado:
God had not done His part. It boiled down to that; He did not keep His end of the deal, and I was really upset because I had done what I said I would do. But God, well, heaven could not make the same claim. So it was time for a conversation, a reckoning, a comeuppance. The hour had come for me to air my complaint, and I did exactly that. It was a cold December night back in 1985. Forever ago. I drove to the vast West Texas prairie. I parked my father's Chevrolet sedan next to a pump jack. I didn't live in Texas at the time. I was actually living in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. But I had been raised in Texas. My father had made a career in the oil fields. And he and Brazil were the subjects of my agreement with God. I told God I would go to Brazil as a missionary. And in turn God would heal my father. Simple as that.

You see, dad was diagnosed with ALS in 1982, the year before Denalyn, my wife, and I were planning to move to Rio in 1983. And upon his diagnosis, we offered to abandon our plans and stay close to him, and he would hear none of it. He really urged us to move to Brazil. So before we went, God and I reached this understanding that my wife and I would forego precious days with my dad. In exchange, God would do what the doctors could not do, and that is heal my father of ALS. In my mind, the result would be this marque testimony, that God heals father of sacrificial missionary. Dad would have his health back; the church would have a story to tell for decades to come. It was a win-win agreement for the Kingdom.

There was just one problem: Dad's condition did not improve. It got worse. And we were called back to Texas on emergency leave. We hurried to the hospital, and we found him intubated and weak. I spent the day in the ICU waiting room, churning on the inside. And that night I went to the oil field. I stomped back and forth on that flat graveled ground, and I filed my grievances. Did I not go to Brazil? Silence. Did I not relocate my family? Silence. Did I not do what I said I would do? Silence. Why won't You heal my father? Silence. God did not speak. Even then I knew why. I just didn't want to admit it. But the fact is, I knew the arrangement was a figment of my imagination. It bore only one signature, and it revealed a misunderstanding that I had about God.

Now, the patriarch Jacob suffered from the same misconception. This study on the life of Jacob is a fascinating, fascinating exploration of what must be the most interesting life in the Old Testament. Just a bit of context as we zoom out; in case you've forgotten, Jacob was the grandson of Abraham, the son of Isaac, the little brother of Esau, just by a matter of seconds. They were twin brothers. Esau exited the womb first. Jacob exited the womb with his hand on Esau's heel. A triumph of irony that picture is because all of his life, Jacob was trying to pull others back so he could move forward.

But when we think of Jacob, we don't think of a Mount Rushmore-level man of faith. We think about the guy who cheated his brother out of his birthright, who lied to his father, who had to go into hiding to escape his angry brother. We think of a fellow who always seemed to be working the system. But we think about a person who became in his life the poster child for the faithfulness of God. The big idea in Jacob's story is God's faithfulness, not Jacob's service. Let me give you an example. So Jacob has escaped Esau's anger. He has trudged across the desert for a day in the direction of his uncle Laban's house in Mesopotamia. It's going to be a long walk. He spent the first night on the desert floor. This grandson of Abraham was so poor he didn't even have a pillow, a knapsack on which to sleep. So he used a rock.

And you'll probably remember that that was the night that God came to him. God appeared to him in a vision. The ladder from heaven descended, and the angels descended and ascended upon it. And even in that moment of desperation, even in that moment in which Jacob, that we know of, offered no prayer of repentance or of appeal for help, God came to him — yet further proof that God never, never will give up on you. When Jacob awoke with that realization, he immediately began to pray. He said, "God has been in this place." Good for you, Jacob. Way to go. He turned his pillow into a pillar. That stone, he anointed it with oil. He actually called that barren stretch of land the house of God. And we would expect that this encounter would turn him into a changed man.

I mean that was certainly the case for other people in Scripture. We think about God appearing to Isaiah or Peter witnessing Christ perform a miracle on the sea of Galilee. We think about those like Isaiah who have a glimpse into the heavens, and Isaiah fell at His feet to worship. Usually when people have an encounter with God, it creates a spirit of humility. But Jacob ... [Laughter.] Jacob, Jacob, Jacob ... He began to negotiate with God. Here's what he said. He said, "If God will be with me and will watch over me on this journey I am taking and [if God] will give me food to eat and clothes to wear so that I return safely to my father's household, then the Lᴏʀᴅ will be my God and this stone that I have set up as a pillar will be God's house, and of all you give me I will give you a tenth" (Genesis 28:20-22, NIV).

Do you see the language of mediation in that prayer? If you will, then I will. If you will be with me, watch over me, feed me, clothe me, return me to my father's house, then I, Jacob, will declare you as my God, build you a house of worship, and give you one-tenth of all you give me. Look at Jacob. Rather than receive the blessing and be grateful, the bargain hunter began to hammer out the key points of a contract. He spoke to God in the same way he might speak to a camel trader. He suggested a transaction and agreement. We might call this transactional theology. "If I do this, then God will do that."

A few days ago, I met with a young couple. Their toddler was injured in a car accident. And when I visited them in the hospital, the child was on life support. As we stood outside the ICU and spoke, I saw not so much sorrow in their eyes but anger, anger at God. "If God takes my son," the young father said, "I will never believe in Him again." And the wife nodded. She had pursed lips and clenched fists. Now who can fault their sorrow? Yet who are we to make such a declaration? Dare we hinge our belief on God's response to our prayers? Again, transactional theology. Transactional theology presupposes that we meet God on equal terms. He's got what I want; I've got what He wants. So we reach an agreement. "If you heal my father," I said, "I'll move to Rio." "If you help me in this interview," someone might say, "I'll be kind to my prison." "If you get me out of prison," someone might say, "I'll be a preacher." If you do this, I'll do that. Really?

On what basis do we negotiate with God? A.W. Tozer wrote this great paragraph, "Left to ourselves we tend immediately to reduce God to manageable terms. We want to get Him where we can use Him, or at least know where He is when we need Him. We want a God we can in some measure control." Anytime we attempt to control spiritual dividends from God, anytime we reduce Him to a genie who awaits our rub on the lamp or an ATM who dispenses goodness if we've got the correct pin, that God is a sky fairy who's under obligation to do what we want because we've thrashed out a deal ... anytime we do that, we border on heresy. We've exchanged a transcendent God to whom we're accountable for a dependent God who's accountable to us.

Now why does this matter? Why is this important? Well, the result of this transactional quid pro quo relationship with God is disillusionment, even disbelief. How many times have you heard someone say, "I gave up on God years ago. My child was sick. And I said, God, if you're up there, please heal my child. And there was no healing. So as far as I'm concerned, [there's] no God." How many people have found themselves in their version of a West Texas oil field, looking into an inky sky and demanding, Why don't You do Your part? How many people have reduced God to a pocket-sized deity and consequently miss out on a vibrant, life-giving relationship with our transcendent, splendid father? Because He is so large. We need to state it clearly. We need to understand it deeply. There is no quid pro quo with God. He's not a flea-market peddler. No tit for tat. This for that. No our part for God's part; He's high above that.
When we pray, we pray, "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name," (Matthew 6:9, RSV). And that root word for hallowed is the very word from which we get words like “holy” and “holiness,” and it carries with it unique ... the meaning unique, different, separated. So really what we need to say, God likes you, but He's not like you. He's high above you. He's high above me. Gravity does not pull Him. Pain does not plague Him. The economy does not faze Him. The weather does not disturb Him. Death cannot claim Him. He is above all this. The Scripture calls Him “the Most High over all the earth” (Psalm 83:18, ESV). The earth is actually His footstool. Our world would fit in His pocket; our universe could sit in His palm. He's holy. He's holy. He is not contained; He contains.

Now nothing stunts spiritual development more than a flea-market view of God. If you think He's puny enough to need our help, then you'll soon abandon your pursuit of Him. If, on the other hand, you see God as He truly is — holy, high apart, transcendent and resplendent — then you'll spend a lifetime doing what we will do for eternity, exploring the beauty and riches of our Father. You see, the reality is, most people who are angry with God are angry with God for being God. They're not angry because He has failed to deliver what He promised. They're angry because He has failed to deliver what they have craved or expected or demanded. God does not exist for Max. Max exists for God. God does not exist to make a big deal out of me. I exist to make a big deal out of Him.

So with that in mind, I think we can appreciate the folly of Jacob's prayer in thinking that he had anything at all to offer God. Again, this is the reason we love the life of Jacob. He is so honest, so like we are: stumbled, fumbled. And yet God never gave up on him, never gave up on him. He appeared to Jacob; He led Jacob. He was kind to Jacob. Even though Jacob misunderstood God. Now, Jacob will have his moments. He will come to deeper and greater understandings. He will appreciate the divinity and the providential ability of God. But still even at Jacob's best moments, he will remind us that the hero of the Jacob story is the hero of our story, and that is God. God is large, and we're small. By the way, God did heal my father, but He did not heal him on this planet. He healed him in His presence. And I'm sure my father would be the first to say that he received the best possible answer to the prayers of his son. Amen.

Kaley Olson:
Amen. Wow, Max. What a story of vulnerability I feel like so many of us can relate to whenever we're trying to make deals with God because we're so desperate for things to work out here. So I mean that was so helpful for me. But I have a question for you, Max, based on kind of how you wrapped up your teaching. And I think it has to do with the transactional-theology concept. But I'm going to back you up to bring you into my brain about how I'm going to ask this question.

Max Lucado:
OK.

Kaley Olson:
So toward the end of your teaching, you were talking about God's holiness. And I think that sometimes we can forget God's holiness and set apartness when we think His job is to chase after us while we continue doing what we want to. It's not permission to keep living in sin. And you said, “God exists for God, not for Max. My job is to make a big deal out of Him. His job is not to make a big deal out of me.” And I think especially in today's culture, what you said is true, but it's counter to a lot of the messages that we're getting. Whenever we think about ... whenever the Bible is preached or spoken from, it can be received as God is for you, which He is, but it's not about you.

And so my question is, what about living in rebellion to God's best? When God met Jacob and he offered no repentance, He did that when Jacob was still living in sin and still trying to do everything on his own. Is there ever a point where while our salvation might be sure, if we continue living in those patterns and always assume that God's going to meet us and that He's accountable to us, will He ever stop? Can we keep living like this in this view of God?

Max Lucado:
My thinking is that God allows us to suffer the consequences of those poor decisions, and Jacob’s story truly illustrates that. There could have been another ending to this moment. When God appeared to Jacob in the dream, with the ladder from heaven and the angels descending and ascending, what if Jacob had awoken and said, "Oh my goodness, how great God is. He met me in this place. I'm going to go back, and I'm going to apologize to Esau. I'm going to go back, and I'm going to apologize to my father. I'm going to repent." I mean, that could have been the ... in fact, we might hope that would've been the response. But apparently that never dawned on him. And so he continued in that spirit of rebellion. And God allowed him to endure the consequences.

Those of us who've read the story of Jacob know what happened next. He ends up spending 14 years as an indentured slave to his uncle, Laban. But that didn't have to happen. I mean he really didn't. He could have gone back home and worked out things in a different way. But God allows us to endure. Even though we're saved, He allows us to endure the consequences of our poor choices.

Kaley Olson:
That's a very helpful response. I think I keep going back to [this]: Even if our response is to obey God because He is holy and we have a right view of God, He still doesn't owe us anything. Which is the wildest way, it's the most surrendered way to live. I feel like is ... knowing that even in obedience, like the story of you and your dad, you can pray all you want and you could still have a right view of God, but God's still going to make the final call. And at the end of the day, we have to live with that in our hearts.

Wendy Blight:
It’s that —

Max Lucado:
Yeah, go ahead. I'm sorry.

Wendy Blight:
I was just going to say it's that sovereignty of God that we have to ... It's so hard to walk in that, knowing we can pray the things we want, but we have to have those open hands that says, I trust You. It's why knowing the Word is so important, to know the promises that come with and the names of God and the attributes of God, because that's the only place I can go when I don't understand why I've prayed for a good thing and I don't understand when He doesn't answer. I have to go back to that place. What were you going to say, Max?

Max Lucado:
I was going to say that the root of disbelief is unmet expectations. You think about that couple I was telling about that their child was on life support. And they were making their belief in God contingent upon the answer to a specific prayer. Again, no one would doubt their sorrow and their heartache. But the right approach in a moment like that is: Your will be done, not mine. I trust You, Father. We certainly make our appeal. We pray passionately. We beg God. We get on the ground and pound the floor like Jesus did in the garden of Gethsemane. But Jesus said, "Not My will, but Your will, be done" (Luke 22:42, VOICE). Ultimately, we surrender to God's sovereignty and trust Him. Otherwise, again, our faith becomes fragile. Our faith becomes dependent upon God doing what we want, when we want it. And that doesn't work. That leads to disappointment. That leads to doubt and to disbelief. That's why it's so important that we continue to announce God is God and we are not. And allow Him to be who He is.

Wendy Blight:
Yeah.

Kaley Olson:
So good.

Wendy Blight:
Thank you, Max. OK, I'm going to bring you a question that is kind of something I lived a lot when my kids were younger. They're older now. So I always thought, I want to teach my kids how to pray. And so I would pray things. And I still do this. I think it's the sovereignty I've learned more about, but I would always say to my kids ... My son played basketball, and I would always pray for his games. We'd sit there, and we'd pray together: pray for excellence, pray for performance. We pray favor over the team, favor with the referees, just every positive thing that I could pray. And I always say, “We pray about everything.” Scripture tells us to pray about everything. And so when we pray all those things and the game goes great, it's wonderful. He made the winning shot, or their team won by 10, or all those things. So we're praying for that. Or we pray for a promotion, or we pray that we get the sales deal, or ... those kind of things.

Max, when those aren't answered, my question is balancing that I want to do what James says, just to pray with complete and utter faith. And we're told to pray about everything. You believe what you pray for. And then if the disappointment comes, can you just sort of explain how you hold those two together: praying in faith without doubting, but at the same time and saying, God, if You do this — my prayer was — my kids will see You. They'll see You at work. They're going to know there's a God who cares about every little thing in your life, as well as the big thing. So how do you balance that with the disappointment that comes, even though you as an adult may understand, with kids, especially children?

Max Lucado:
We live with this every day, don't we? Every single one of us, myself included. My prayer list this morning includes a dear friend who even predates me at this church. I've been in this church since 1988. He was here when I moved here. He texted me and said there's indication his wife is battling Alzheimer's. Then my neighbor down the street texted, and he's got a headache he just can't shake, and they're concerned. And then two friends of ours, elderly couple, are both so sick they can't help each other. So somebody needs to go there and help them out of bed. So it is just all the time we have these urgent needs. And yes, we take those needs to God. Whether it be a basketball game or whether it be a struggling wife. We take all our needs to God. Cast all your cares upon Him, the Scripture says, because He cares about you (1 Peter 5:7). That is right to do.

Now, here's the key, at least in my estimation: Prayer is not demanding that God do what I want, but prayer is trusting that God will do what is right. We have to be careful and not place the power of prayer in the faith of the one who prays or the way of the one who prays. We have to let the power of prayer reside in the One who hears the prayer. If we think, OK, if I had prayed with more faith, we would've won that game, or if I had prayed with more faith, she would've been healed, look what we've done. We've taken the burden, and we've placed it on the person.

Grace is all about God taking the burden on Himself. When Jesus died on the cross, He took all the burdens on Himself. And when we come to Christ, Jesus said to just come like little children. Little children come. They're asking for the moon. And God says, That's OK. Ask me for the moon. But trust Me that I will do what is right in the end. And He will. He will. May not be what I want immediately. But ultimately, it's going to be what is right.

Wendy Blight:
Yeah, I love that because what you're teaching us is, in order to understand prayer so fully, we need to know and walk deeply and richly in the attributes and names of God. When we know those things, then when we tend toward what you're talking about, "I didn't have enough faith," or "I've done something wrong, so He didn't answer my prayer." If we can go back to what we know is true about God, if we have those things to go back to, it's going to be that balance for us. Thank you so much.

Kaley Olson:
Yeah. Yeah. Max, thank you so much.

Max Lucado:
I agree.

Kaley Olson:
Thank you for coming on the podcast today, truly. It's always just such a pleasure to get to hear you teach but also to get to talk to you and have these in-the-moment conversations as we process in real time what Wendy and I know we are asking questions about but also what our listeners are asking questions about. And so I want to be sure that our listeners get their hands on your new book titled God Never Gives Up on You. The holy God, the holy God who we know and adore so much, He never gives up on you. It's so amazing.

And so be sure to purchase a copy for you and a friend, using the link in our show notes. Also, don't forget to grab our free resource in the show notes titled “Chosen, Called & Confident: 5 Days of Believing God Can Use You.” This resource will help you overcome the lie that you are disqualified by your past as you discover how God can use even your worst mistakes for great impact. Well, friends, thank you so much for tuning in today. Thank you, Wendy. Thank you, Max. And as always, we believe when you know the Truth and live the Truth, it changes everything.