The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast

Kaley:

Hi, friends. Welcome back to The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast where we share biblical Truth for any girl in any season. I'm your host, Kaley Olson, and I'm here with my co-host and my friend, Shae Hill. Hey, Shae.

Shae:

Hey, Kaley.

Kaley:

How are you doing?

Shae:

I'm good.

Kaley:

Great.

Shae:

Happy to be here.

Kaley:

Happy to be here. Shae, I have a question for you.

Shae:

OK.

Kaley:

What decisions do you make in advance so that you don't have to decide when the time comes?

Shae:

I love this question, and I wish that I had more things to tell you because that would be really efficient. But one thing that I think I decided in advance is I don't necessarily pull my clothes out the night before, but I'll think about ... I'll kind of go through my closet in my mind of what I might wear the next day so that I kind of already go into the next day with a little bit of an idea of what I might wear. And then I also — this could be controversial — I've recently learned that this is not the norm, but I decide what day of the week I'm going to wash my hair. And it's not with joy that I decide that —

Kaley:

No, it's not. We were just talking about ... it's a day we dread.

Shae:

It's a day we dread, but —

Kaley:

But it must be done.

Shae:

It must be done —

Kaley:

It must be decided. It's brought an interesting conversation. And we've never had our podcast producer on the show before, but Jana is miked up and ready to go because she's got something to say about this —

Jana:

Guys —

Kaley:

Jana washes her hair every single day!

Jana:

If you guys put out ... I'm telling you, if you guys put out an Instagram poll on your personal Instagrams, you would find that I am not the weird one in this situation.

Kaley:

You know what?

Jana:

I would say people more often than not probably wash their hair every day or every other day. There's no way people are washing their hair once a week.

Shae:

My mind is absolutely —

Kaley:

My mind is blown.

Jana:

My mind is blown that your mind is blown that I wash my hair every day.
Kaley: These are the types of conversations that we have at Proverbs 31 Ministries all the time because we're mostly females around here, all talking through how to be more efficient. And what we do, what's our current food that we're eating because we like to eat the same things every day.

Shae:

Totally.

Kaley:

We're women of habit.

Shae:

We are.

Kaley:

Proverbs 31 says nothing about being women of habit or washing your every day or not. So there's the good news in that, but here's what I would like —

Shae:

There's freedom. There's freedom to be free.

Kaley:

My Instagram is public. It's @kaleyolsn, K-A-L-E-Y-O-L-S-N. If you are a Jana of the world and you wash your hair —

Jana:

Oh my gosh!

Kaley:

— every single day, I just want you to DM me and let me know that our friend Jana is not alone because most people don't.

Jana:

What do I win if I win this bet?

Kaley:

I don't know. We'll talk about it. You'll have to come back on the podcast and talk about it.

Jana:

All right.

Kaley:

Anyways, we got her rated in. Thanks for joining us today, Jana. Guys, I just have to also say, Jana is behind the scenes for every single podcast episode. And we're so grateful for what she does in recording and editing and producing every show to get out to your ears all around the U.S. and the globe and wherever you're listening. But, Shae, I love making easy decisions, but my goodness, as someone with a perfectionist type of personality, it's really hard to make a decision when the outcome isn't linear. That's what you and our guest Dr. Joel Muddamalle talk about today, right?

Shae:

Yes, that's exactly right.

Kaley:

Can you share a little bit about what you guys discuss?

Shae:

Yes. So in today's conversation, Joel is going to help us navigate this whole process of decision-making, whether it's big or small. We talk about different examples from something as big of taking a new job or moving to a new city or just trying to figure out should I join that small group or what friendships should I pursue? And he really provides examples, almost like a checklist of how we can make decisions with confidence and really fight that tendency where I often find myself, which is in that doubting place where we often doubt: Am I capable of making good decisions or sound decisions?

And so, I almost picture everything that he shares today as the barriers that they put up whenever you're bowling that will really help guide your bowling ball down to the pins. It's like that. We have to make decisions every single day, whether it's when we're going to wash our hair, what food we're going to eat, or should I take this job, or should I move to this city, or should I attend this church? And so, if we can have a framework like those bumpers to guide our decisions, then I feel like we'll all feel a lot more confident and a lot more supported that we are capable of doing this and making godly decisions.

Kaley:

Yes. And making godly decisions and letting go of the fear that there's going to be punishment or reprimand around —

Shae:

Totally.

Kaley:

— the decision that we make. I think that's something that a lot of my friends, and myself included, struggle with. And I'm so ready to hear this conversation and be set free from that mentality. But before we dive in, I want to tell listeners about a free resource we created for you guys from our very own Lysa TerKeurst called “The Prayer I Pray Every Morning.” This is a prayer that Lisa has talked about at events and on her social media for years. I mean, I think Shae and I could probably say it pretty much verbatim right now.

Shae:

I think so too.

Kaley:

But we've never really made it official until now. And, Shae, what I love about this prayer is how simple it is and how it can serve as a reminder that the decision to pray every day and surrender to God is the decision that will set you up to make better decisions. And so, you guys, grab your copy for free today using the link in our show notes. And now let's dive into your conversation.

Shae:

Joel, I'm so happy to be back with you on the podcast today. We have not recorded an episode in a hot minute. I don't even know if we've recorded an episode in 2024 yet. We took a little —

Joel:

Is that true?

Shae:

I don't know. It feels true —

Joel:

It feels like it. Oh, yeah, it's true.

Shae:

Let's go off the record if it's not true, but it's good to be back with you today.

Joel:

I'm so glad you asked me back.

Shae:

I feel like we have some catching up to do. Is there anything that you want to tell me about? And I'm not asking about your sports teams ... I'm asking about you.

Joel:

Yeah, that's true.

Shae:

What have you had going on?

Joel:

'Cause especially sports team's not doing very well right now.

Shae:

So we could just skip right over that one.

Joel:

That's right; that's right. Yeah. Actually, honestly, a big update in my world is on March 5, my first book ever, The Hidden Peace, came out into the world.

Shae:

Yay!

Joel:

And so that's been super exciting and —

Shae:

That's so awesome.

Joel:

— so fun. On tour, it was a lot of fun because we were able to go out and just get feedback from people who are reading the book and highlight ... I had one gal who came, and she had already bought the book, and she had highlighted it all up. And then she got another one for her friend because her friend wanted to borrow her book, but she's like, "You can't borrow my book because it's all highlighted." And Lysa always teaches us that when somebody stops highlighting your book, they stop —

Shae:

Reading a book.

Joel:

That's right.

Shae:

And if they stop reading a book, they'll never recommend it to a friend.

Joel:

That's right.

Shae:

Do I need to keep going?

Joel:

No, I mean, you're a walking dictionary of Lysa TerKeurst-isms ... TerKeurst-isms.

Shae:

Sure.

Joel:

Yes.

Shae:

Yeah, it is your podcast episode. So while she's not here, we'll go with that. OK. So today's conversation, we're going to talk about decisions. And maybe some of this relates to when you were trying to make a decision about writing your first book of just when you're trying to figure out, Is this something I'm going to do? You're weighing the pros and cons. I don't know what decision-making looks like for you, but we'll get into it. But when I think about big decisions in my life, I think about my move to Charlotte. And in 2017, I was wrapping up college, and I was interviewing for jobs, and I was interviewing with Lysa for the position that I'm in now. But I knew that if I took this position, I was going to have to move.

No one else in my family at the time lived ... outside of my immediate family ... lived outside of Birmingham, Alabama, where I was. And I had actually never even visited Charlotte before I accepted this job, which is kind of wild. Probably should have asked more questions. But when you're 21 and someone wants to employ you, sometimes the process is pretty simple. But I just remember weighing all those pros and cons of just, Is this the right decision for me? How do I know that this is right? How do I know that God is OK with this decision?

And then at some point you kind of reach a place with decision-making where you kind of have to make a decision even if you don't have 100% clarity. Or if you feel like you 100% haven't heard from God, or you might even still be torn. With me, I felt like I just reached a very clear moment of I had no reservations. All signs were pointing to this was the right decision. And I just told myself, too, "If something happened and this wasn't the right path for me or whatever, I'm not stuck here forever."

Seven years later, I'm still here.

Joel:

You're still here.

Shae:

And I'm happy, and I'm thriving. But I think a lot of us have had these big, pivotal decisions in our life, but then also sometimes, they're just daily decisions. I know you and I have talked a lot about budgeting this year. Joel's in his budget era.

Joel:

For sure.

Shae:

And even that is decision-making as you're thinking about what am I prioritizing?

Joel:

Yeah. What am I valuing? What is —

Shae:

Exactly. So I'd love for us to talk today just about how can we as believers make decisions confidently bringing God into the process, which I know that probably sounds weird 'cause He's always with us. But how can we make informed, confident decisions as believers, whether it's something big like a job, a move, maybe a decision to grow your family. Or even something as simple as: Should I reach out to this person? Is this a relationship I should prioritize? What should I prioritize in my budget? Just things like that. What thoughts do you have?

Joel:

Well, I think it's first and foremost incredibly important that I ... just on behalf of Proverbs 31 Ministries and Lysa TerKeurst, our entire team ... we want to thank you Shae Tate-Hill for saying “yes” to Proverbs and being here all these seven years. We're just very grateful. I'm very grateful for you —

Shae:

Thank you.

Joel:

— and for your friendship.

Shae:

I'm grateful too. I'm thankful they've let me grow up here.

Joel:

That's right. That's right. So I think it's important ... I want to acknowledge decision-making is hard. You've just described it. It's hard. There's a tension that's built into it. And there's also the sense of if I make this decision, what are the consequences of that? But also if I don't make the decision, what are the consequences of that?

And so, I actually think that there can be a pendulum swing that typically happens with decision-making. And I've personally experienced this. One, we make decisions way too fast. We're a bit reckless, we're loose with it, and we're just like, "I'm going to do whatever I want to do." The first good thing that pops into your mind, that's what you do. But then the second, and I kind of call this paralysis of decision-making, we deliberately overthink things.

Shae:

Lysa has a whole chapter in this ... in The Best Yes called “Analysis Paralysis.”

Joel:

Analysis paralysis, exactly.

Shae:

It's so real.

Joel:

And you're just consumed with all the variables and all of the “what ifs.” And then what ends up happening is you don't make any decision. Or the decision that you do make ... you're so stressed out about the decision that you made that you forever ... you can't live in the moment of your decision. You're living in the “what if” of I made the wrong decision in it. And I think both of those things are really challenging.

And so, what we have is this pendulum swing on both sides. But at the root of this, I think is a response of fear. So on the one side, our lack of making decisions, it could be fear-oriented “what if.” But on the opposite side of it is a lack of proper fear. If you're making decisions way too fast, there might be indication that you have not been fully considerate of all the implications of this.

So I want to go back to your experience. What was the stress moments for you in trying to make this decision? And then how did you actually overcome it? How did you finally make that decision to where we are now seven years later?

Shae:

Yeah, I think for me, that decision to move and to accept this job was a little bit weird because there was definitely an element of firsts with this. I had never walked the process. So if we're going back to fear, I'd say that would be fear of the unknown, just experiencing a lot of unknowns for the first time. Am I even asking the right questions? Am I even doing the right research?

And then, I would say fear of the future too. I think sometimes when we're trying to make a decision, we're trying to decide for the right now and for the forever, and we can't know that. And sometimes that's where we get tripped up is ... My husband and I are in the process of buying a house right now, our first home. And I'm even thinking about it where it's like we're trying to make a decision for right now that will also feel good X amount of years later. And trying to juggle that can be difficult. So fear of the unknown, fear of the future.

And then probably, too, just a little bit of fear of letting God down. That might sound weird, but I think ... Yeah, does God approve of this decision? Is this His best next step for me in this season? And feeling like ... I think sometimes I've heard Christians really oversell how God will speak to us in those moments. It's not like He parts the sky like a whiteboard and writes something. I mean, that would be awesome.

Joel:

That would be great.

Shae:

That hasn't been my experience. And so if you just have a lack of confidence or clarity that you feel like God is on board with this decision, I think that can also paralyze you.

Joel:

Yeah, I think that's so good. And I think one of the things that you said there that's so important for us, especially as people who love Jesus, we want to honor God with our decision-making processes. And we also want to be in God's will. We want to do the things that God wants us to do. And so I think the decision-making part of it is actually tightly connected to this concept of what is God's will for our lives. 'Cause if we're making decisions disconnected from God's will, then we feel like we're living rogue and rebellious in our life. And if we're making decisions connected to God's will, now there's this overwhelming fear of did I get God's will right?

Shae:

Right. And where I get tripped up with this is it's easier for me to spot things in my life that if I chose to walk in this, it would be sin. It's like that feels pretty obvious it's not going to be in God's will. But this move, for example, it wasn't sin for me to move to Charlotte. It wasn't sin for me to accept this job, but I didn't know if it was right for me.

Joel:

Yeah, absolutely.

Shae:

And so that's where I think it's difficult. We're not just talking about weighing good and bad things. It's like sometimes zero ... All the options, none of them are bad or inherently sinful, but you're just trying to figure out what God's will is for you.

Joel:

Exactly. So I want to talk about two types of God's will.

And this is kind of the theological framework that is I think going to be super helpful for us to be able to then make the connection to our discernment and what we do. And probably actually take the weight of ownership that we're carrying that is actually not even ours to carry but still maintain the level of responsibility that God absolutely wants us to be responsible for.

Shae:

Let's hear it.

Joel:

The two types of will that theologians, scholars, forever have been ... They've used different names for it. And so I'll give the way that I think it's the easiest for us to understand. And then also I'll give you some of the technical terms for it. But the first one is God's sovereign will. God's sovereign will. Sometimes this is referred to as God's prescriptive will. My seminary professor Dr. John Frame has an incredible book out on this where he talks about these two types of wills.

But God's sovereign will is this idea that God is King and God is sovereign over all of creation. This is Psalm 46. There's not an ounce of creation that God is not in control over. Right? He has true power, strength and stability. He's the One who holds all together. So God's sovereign will.

In God's sovereign will, God also has a secondary aspect of His will, which is called God's will of command. Sometimes it's called His will of decree or His will of command. So God's sovereign will is irrefutable. There's actually nothing really you and I can do to be out of God's sovereign will. God willed for Jesus to come through the incarnation, to defeat death through death on a cross, and to have the possibility for humanity to be reconciled together. That's all part of God's sovereign will. Right?

And then you have God's will of command, God's moral desire for humanity. Now, this is the one that can be a little bit tricky in this sense. You and I have been given agency, human agency, in order to make moral decisions. We can make a decision of, do I want Pepsi or do I want diet Pepsi? I've been telling our friends —
Shae:

Or do I want Coca-Cola?

Joel:

You probably don't want Coke unless you're overseas. Overseas Coke is very, very good. In the bottle, that's excellent. But outside of that ... but this is you have agency; you can exercise your will to a degree. And with that, there is this sense that God has a moral impulse for you and I to live out with that is in conjunction with His sovereign will. And there's a freedom here because in God's moral will or His will of command, you and I can step out of that and still be in God's sovereign will.

Now, are there consequences to the decisions that we make if it's outside of God's will of command? Absolutely. Right?

Shae:

Adam and Eve.

Joel:

Adam and Eve for sure. Or even think about this ... I do this with my kids all the time. There's a path that's in front of them, and mom and I, their mom and I, we know that this particular path is going to be relatively easy, in the sense of there's going to be some hard work up front called the dishes. But once you're done with the dishes, man, we're going to have so much fun. We're going to have popcorn. They're going to have popcorn. I don't like popcorn. They're going to eat popcorn. We're going to watch a movie. We're going to have a great time. It's going to be fun. Right?

Now, they have a will of their own, and they can decide to go and to do the dishes and then enjoy what's on the opposite end. Or as my children sometimes do, they can forget to do the dishes. But here's the deal, the dishes still got to get done. And now that they've gone into disobedience because they haven't done the dishes, there's just a cost associated with it.

So on this one, they're not going to get the popcorn. They might still get the movie, but they're not going to get the popcorn. Or they might not get the popcorn or the movie, but they're going to do the dishes, and they're going to have a time to go on a walk as a family. There's different outcomes that are there. All of this is still contained in what? The dishes got done. That's a non-condition ... Like the dishes are going to get done.

And so I think when we're thinking about God's will, it's important for us to start to think through what is God's sovereign will? God's sovereign will is for us to enjoy Him, for us to be reconciled to Him, for us to .... He's got this sovereign will that's out there. Now, how does that execute itself? How does it flesh itself out in His will of command? We have a responsibility to know Him, to know His Word, to do things that are wise and be discerning, which is going to lead us to kind of the next part of this question.

But hopefully this now gives you a little bit of a relief to know that you are not in control over God's sovereign will. That is going to happen. The dishes are going to get done. You are in control over it, and you do have agency and responsibility for how that plays out in your specific life with the decisions that you make or that you don't make. And so with that, we have to be responsible for things that we can be responsible for and not get caught into and entrapped in decisions for things that we don't have control over.

Shae:

That's great. I think that's really good. So do you want to talk through, now that we've learned the difference between these two, how this fleshes out into the practical level of making decisions?

Joel:

Yeah, probably one of my favorite verses in Proverbs and ... verses in Proverbs, we have to remember that these are principles to live by. They're not commands or promises that we're supposed to expect. So here's a principle in Proverbs 16:9, "A person's heart plans his way, but the Lᴏʀᴅ determines his steps" (CSB). So what do you see right there, even in that verse? You find sovereign will of command. The Lord determines his steps, but you also find God's will of command that there is moral agency for the person to plan their ways. Right? And so if you're listening, you're just like, OK, how does this actually work? How does this actually flesh itself out? So I'm going to go back to you, Shae.

Shae:

OK.

Joel:

How did you weigh out the pros and cons of moving to a city that you never even visited before?

Shae:

I mean, I think that I knew that I actually never thought that working in ministry outside of a church was an opportunity. And I really didn't know that much about Proverbs 31 Ministries and Lysa at the time. But getting to work in an ministry environment was super intriguing to me. I knew that Charlotte was still drivable to my family, so that was appealing to me.

Joel:

How did you know that Charlotte was drivable to your family?

Shae:

Because —

Joel:

Get very practical.

Shae:

Oh, because I researched.

Joel:

I know you're an epic researcher. When we're out on tour, you knew where every YMCA was. You even helped me to figure out where my gyms were. It was excellent.

Shae:

Listen, on tour, you have to put on your researcher hat.

Joel:

You’ve got to put on your research hat.

Shae:

It's survival. Yeah.

Joel:

OK. But look what you just did, agency. You just took human responsibility.

Shae:

Right, that's true.

Joel:

With a decision that was ... OK, so keep going. So you've got the distance —

Shae:

Yeah.

Joel:

Right? How did you deal with the unknown of Charlotte? What is the difference between Charlotte and Birmingham?

Shae:

Yeah, that's right. You mean as a culture?

Joel:

Yeah. How did you overcome that?

Shae:

Well, I did actually visit, but I had already accepted the job. But I think I knew that a lot of young people had started moving here.

Joel:

And how did you know that?

Shae:

I don't know. I also knew SEC Network was here, and I love sports.

Joel:

There we go.

Shae:

So I knew that was here, but I think I realized, because ... I think I've heard it called the banking capital of the South. And so, I knew a lot of people with Bank of America being here and all of that. I knew a lot of young people would move here if they felt too overwhelmed by a move to New York or something like that ... they would move to Charlotte.

Joel:

And what does it tell you if a lot of young people are moving here? What is the possibility for you, in a sense?

Shae:

That I could find myself friends and community and other people. Yeah.

Joel:

Yeah. OK. We're literally going through the process here. How do you make decisions? Well, you do some research. You consider, Have other people gone this road before? If they have, probably want to ask them some questions, right? So let me just walk through —

Shae:

One more thing I want to add, too, is every person in my life that had walked through college with me or mentors felt very good about this decision as well. Which was that moment where you're bringing someone information that you've gathered or research, and then you're saying, "This is all that I know. What do you think?" Kind of poke holes in my research process. And everyone felt great about it.

Joel:

OK, so this is so good. So you have a scale, and the scale is neutral at the starting point. And there's just an ambiguous thesis, like the thesis statement, I'm an economist. I'm using that word. But basically the goal is, OK ... or the question is, should I move to Charlotte or not? And then you put pros and cons on it, and you go through some research, and you go through some other stuff, and eventually the value proposition weighs itself out where you go, "This is an acceptable decision."

There's enough information here that lets me know that ... Could it potentially be hard? Yeah. Could it even be the wrong thing? Yeah, but is there more weight to the possibility of good and the potential there than it being wrong and the potential of bad? It was like, all right, great. OK. This is the same decisions that I make in the morning before I go out to my day. Like today, right? The shoes that I'm wearing I typically wouldn't wear if it was raining, and I looked at the weather, and there's no rain in the forecast. You know what happened? Right when I got in my car and I was driving in this way, it started to drizzle, and I got stressed out. Listen, I had done everything I possibly could. I looked at the weather, I looked ... And it's like, it is what it is. And so we're fine. My shoes are OK, but let me —

Shae:

Praise God.

Joel:

Let me walk through a couple steps here, biblically, theologically, scripturally that I think that we find consistently throughout Scripture that's going to help us in our decision-making as we ... like what Proverbs 16:9 says. We are going to plan wisely. We're going to discern to the best of our ability, and we're going to take confidence and have safety and security knowing that God's sovereign will is still going to be had ... the dishes are still going to get done.

Shae:

Yeah, that's good.

Joel:

OK, so here's the first thing. It's through prayer. And our friend Jim Cress always says this, "You guys are like, that's so simple." Well, it's simple, but it's also not simplistic. I struggle with prayer. I've said this before, so you've heard me say this. I can study deep Bible theology; I can get into Greek and Hebrew and do all that kind of stuff. You ask me to sit here and pray for five minutes. I kind of just struggle with that.

Shae:

I'm the same way. The only thing that's helped me is writing my prayers out.

Joel:

There we go.

Shae:

That's really helped me stay focused.

Joel:

Yeah. And so for me, I've had to turn into a conversation where it's like I almost imagine God speaking back. And often when I'm hearing Him speak back, it's just His Scripture, stuff that I've read before.

Shae:

That's good.

Joel:

That's how I was communicating back. So it's like through prayer ... Prayer is so incredibly vital because prayer is a means of communication that turns our relationship with God from being something that is a monologue, one-way conversation, to a dialogue that's two way. The Holy Spirit is communicating back to us. So the first thing, and I ... Please don't overlook this, y'all. Pray and ask God for a sense of clarity in this decision.

The second thing, and you mentioned this one, is through other members of God's family. The Holy Spirit is working through them, and they've got transferable wisdom that is so important. Maybe one of the best pieces of advice that I got, Shae, when Brittany and I first got married was our pastor, pastor Bob; he said, "Hey, I want you guys to identify three different types of couples. The first couple is going to be like y'all are in the thick of ... Y'all are in the exact same spot." So they're just your friends.

Shae:

The side by side.

Joel:

Side-by-side couple. Exactly. The second couple is they're about two to five years ahead of you. So they've got their first kid maybe on the way; they maybe are in two ... Whatever that life sees ... And for that couple, for the side-by-side couple, y'all just live life together anyways. But for that couple, you're never going to ask them to bring food. You're going to say, "Hey, what's an open day on our calendar? Can we bring the food to you?" Because they are stressed out. We have been that couple forever where it's like our goal is get to nine o'clock service, which means we're going to get to 10:15. That's just how we live because it's hard, right? OK. That's the second couple.

The third couple are empty nesters. You look at them and go, "Oh my gosh, they still love each other. They've got grandchildren that adore them. They've got children that they're still talking to." And with them, this is what you're going to do. You're going to be like, "Can we get on your calendar? We just want to spend time with you and just hang out." And this is what they're going to say, "Oh, we're so unfun. I go to sleep at seven o'clock." And this is what you say, "Great, we'll be there at five." Right?

You seek after them, and this is really important. The transferable wisdom they have has been hard earned in different seasons of life. So that the wisdom they can give you as you are making discerning choices is going to be vitally helpful because you've got a treasure trove of experience here that's going to help you see blind spots that you potentially couldn't see before. This is the beauty of God's family.
Shae: Totally. And I would say, too, when I'm even thinking back on the move here, it was the first time I was making that decision or a decision like that. But having people in my life, that was not the first decision they had made like that. And so I was able to glean from their wisdom in a way that it really brought peace and comfort knowing that I could glean from their wisdom and their experience, even though I felt overwhelmed by the process.

Joel:

Absolutely. I love that. And then the next one, and really the last one, is fasting. Now I know people are like, "What? Fasting feels so super spiritual." Throughout the Old Testament, God's people fasted right before they had to make important decisions. They would fast before a king would be anointed. Kings would fast before big military decisions. So what is it about fasting? And I don't want to get legalistic with this, but I want to get to the principle of the idea of fasting.

The idea of fasting is that you're intentionally [giving up] something that you genuinely enjoy and value. And in the tension of that pain of not experiencing that thing, you're going to commit to praying and seeking God. And here's something that's fascinating. We get sharper. Our brains are ... kind of like, it's almost like as we fast, our body is physiologically getting disrupted in such a way that our thinking changes. We're more perceptive. We just get sharper in those moments.

Shae:

It's like fasting is a focus; it helps produce focus.

Joel:

It helps produce focus; it helps clarity of mind. I do this thing now called cold plunging. It's kind of a thing that people do apparently.

Shae:

I, too, have tried the cold plunging.

Joel:

Yes, yes, I know, with our friend Jess Connelly.

Shae:

Yes, I did.

Joel:

And the cold plunging thing is fascinating because it shocks your body and instantly you're trying to escape. You want to get the heck out.

But then this has been my experience. I've got such mental fortitude for the rest of that day. I am so clearly ... there's something that's happening that God has designed our body where these types of withdrawal are doing hard things, producing focus, and I love that.

And then just from a practical standpoint, we're going to trust the Spirit to lead us in those two things through prayer with other family members in God's family and then through fasting and then the Spirit's going to lead us through that. And then this kind of safety net here. With faith, even if we take a misstep, we know that God's sovereign will is still in control. The dishes are still going to get done, and God is more than capable of taking our missteps and turning them into a path for His ultimate will to be done in our lives.
Shae: Right. Because He's writing our life story.

As I think about the process that you're kind of laying out for us, outlining for us really of, how to have an informed decision-making process, it kind of reminds me of the bumpers that we will sometimes put up to go bowling. And it's like those bumpers are helping make sure that the bowling ball is going somewhere. And I think about those as guardrails as you're making an informed process.

So it's not ... Don't get legalistic with it, with prayer or fasting or any of these, but these are just supporting things that God has given us access to that can help us make informed decisions. And as we were preparing for today, I was reminded of a devotional that's inside Lysa TerKeurst's book You're Going to Make It. And I wanted to share some of these questions. This is from Day 25, I think, because I think they're so helpful in just kind of adding another layer in a decision-making process of removing the mystery and removing the confusion. And let's just go ahead and speak life over someone. God is already well-pleased with you. You don't have to earn that. We speak that shame off of you.

So listen to these questions, just as you're thinking about making a decision. Is this leading you closer to God's best or deterring you away from it? Is this supported by the wisdom of trusted friends who lean on God's Word and listen to God's leading? You talked about the family of God there. When you ask for other people's advice, are you withholding any necessary details, hoping they will agree with you rather than challenge you?

Joel:

This is a question of honesty —

Shae:

Yes.

Joel:

— of being truly honest with yourself and with others.

Shae:

Yes. When you think about this decision, do you feel more at peace or panicked? Now, this one is a little hard because how many times have you heard someone say, "I feel peace," or "I didn't feel peace." So in 30 seconds, can you give us a little rundown of what it means to have peace? Because sometimes we have to move forward in things that we do not feel peace about at all. It is not what we would've chosen for ourselves.

Joel:

Yeah, I think peace is settled assurance that you've done all that you can —

Shae:

That's good.

Joel:

— with what you have in front of you.

Shae:

That's good; that's good.

Joel:

And if you've done all that you can with what you have in front of you, then you can have peace and still feel a tension of, OK, we're going to process through it now.

Shae:

Yeah, that's good. And then the last one is, what will this decision cost you and is it a cost that you're willing to pay? I hope some of these bullet-point questions really help someone listening today just as they're trying to navigate a decision or just maybe this is an episode that you can turn back to when you're trying to make a decision in the future. But thanks for everything that you brought today, Joel. Is there anything else you want to add before we close out today?

Joel:

No, I love it, and I just want to encourage you that it feels like decision-making is a muscle that needs to be exercised. And as we exercise this muscle, we'll learn that the more we focus on these principles, the better it's going to help us in the process so that there's less of that internal turmoil that ends up happening. It's not that the decision-making isn't going to get easier or it's going to get harder. It's just that internal turmoil of getting to that next thing is going to become easier just because we're learning to be more dependent on God. And we have the weight of responsibility of things that we ought not to be responsible of lifted off of our shoulders, which is suffering.

Shae:

And where we are struggling, God's grace will fill the gaps every single time.

Kaley:

That was so great, Shae. I love it whenever we can get you and Joel especially to be practical. It's like, bring it down.

Shae:

I know.

Kaley:

Help me make this every day and walk away with being able to apply it. And you guys nailed it.

Shae:

He's so brilliant that I picture him being like the wow in our partnership.

Kaley:

Are you the how?

Shae:

And I'm the how.

Kaley:

That's great.

Shae:

And you know what? Together you need both. You need both.

Kaley:

But I have to know from you, what was your biggest takeaway from the conversation with Joel?

Shae:

I mean, I know I shared a lot of personal experiences of just decisions I've had to make in my life, but honestly, I think that one of my biggest takeaways from our conversation was just remembering that we don't have to make decisions in isolation. There are places and people who can support us through the process of decision-making. So I don't have to wonder or even doubt or honestly sometimes spiral that I'm on the right track. I can access those support people to really make sure that I'm making decisions not in isolation but echoed by people who are also walking with God. And just being confident that we also walk with the Holy Spirit who does actively speak to us. And so we can really lay aside fear and move forward in freedom in this whole decision-making process, whether we're navigating big things or small things.

Kaley:

That's so good. One of the things that I really liked was kind of toward the end, Shae, whenever you shared a few of the practical tips that I think came from a Lysa devotion.

Shae:

Yes.

Kaley:

And it was so helpful for me to be able to have questions to ask myself. 'Cause I think a lot of times whenever I'm in the middle of making a big decision, I don't even know what to ask. I don't know what to pray, and it kind of gave me some language of things to pray through that are really practical.

For example, one of the questions was, when you ask for other people's advice, are you withholding any necessary details, hoping they'll agree with you rather than challenge you? I was like, Whoa —
Shae: That's so convicting.

Kaley:

— that's really helpful and convicting. And I would tell you guys what the rest of the questions were, but I'm not going to. I think you should go back and listen again. Again, it was toward the end ... very, very practical. I think this will be helpful in conversations that you're having with your friends. Just helpful kind of gut-reality checks as you really filter through what decision you're making and what outcome you're really hoping to have.

Shae:

Yeah, it's just a great way to hold yourself accountable in decision-making or even it could be a good starting place to ask yourself those questions before you walk through the decision-making process.

But, friends, if you'd like to go a little deeper on this topic of wisdom, we have just the resource for you, and I'm so excited about it. Our next First 5 study guide is going to be on the book of Proverbs, and it's called Proverbs: Everyday Wisdom for Everyday Decisions. We've linked the study guide for you to purchase in the show notes, and we can't wait for you to walk through this timeless book of wisdom and see what God does.

Kaley:

I love the book of Proverbs.

Shae:

Me too.

Kaley:

It's so practical.

Shae:

I'm super excited about it.

Kaley:

How fitting, Proverbs 31, guys, thanks for listening today at Proverbs 31 Ministries. While we may not all wash our hair every day, one thing we can agree on is we believe when you know the Truth and live the Truth, it changes everything.