The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast

Kaley: Hello, friends. Welcome back to the Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast, where we share biblical truth for any girl in any season. I’m your host, Kaley Olson, and I’m here with my friend and cohost, Meredith Brock.

Meredith: Well hi, Kaley. It’s sure good to be back in the studio with you today because we have a real treat for our podcast friends.

Kaley: Yes, we do.

Meredith: Many of you remember our Therapy and Theology series on trust issues, but did you know that Lysa TerKeurst has released a Bible study called Trustworthy, based on 1 and 2 Kings? That is out right now as we speak; you can get a copy.

Kaley: Right now, yes.

Meredith: And today, boy oh boy, do we have a special treat for our podcast friends —

Kaley: Yes, we do.

Meredith: — and that is, you will get to hear a discussion and a deeper teaching from this study with Lysa herself. Also, our director of theology, Joel Muddamalle, and our online Bible studies manager, Kendra Schwarz.

Kaley: That is great, Meredith. And you know why it’s great? Not only because they get to hear the teaching, but because I assigned you in the script to say Joel’s name and you did it correctly. So Joel —

Meredith: Everybody give me a round of applause.

Kaley: — if you’re listening right now, congratulate Meredith, because she —

Meredith: I worked really hard on that.

Kaley: You have. You have and I’m proud of you.

Meredith: Thank you. Thank you.

Kaley: But also, in this OBS study, you had to have learned to pronounce a lot of different names.

Meredith: It’s true.

Kaley: But let’s just pause for a second. You and I get really excited about Trustworthy because we’ve seen the inner workings of the study. We’ve got to see Lysa get excited about studying the Kings and we’ve heard her share the raw hard things that she’s learned through this process. And we’ve heard teachings and staff meetings. You, Meredith, got to go to Israel.

Meredith: That’s right. It was incredible.

Kaley: What, like... I’m still waiting for my turn but that’s okay.

Meredith: One day.

Kaley: But you got to be on site with her when she recorded these study videos there, and that’s incredible.

Meredith: They’re incredibly impactful.

Kaley: Yes. But our listeners might be thinking, Trustworthy? I don’t know that I want to talk about my trust issues or Kings. I’m not a king. I don’t want to be a king. I’ll never be a king. Why does this matter to me? Why should I study this? But what does it tell me about how to live my life as an average person if I’m not a king?

Meredith: Yeah, that’s right. Honestly, Kaley, I’m glad you brought that up because it’s true. Looking at the Old Testament Kings is really kind of confusing. They have really weird names, kind of like Joel. But —

Kaley: We love you.

Meredith: Not only do they have really weird names, but they are living in a completely different culture and context from what we live in. But it’s so important to understand the overall context of what’s happening in the Old Testament by understanding who are these Kings and why did they matter? And it really does matter to us today because it gives us a better understanding of what the Bible is actually saying to us. So when I got to go to Israel with Lysa, man, it really made an impact on me. But I remember a specific teaching on Jeroboam and Rehoboam that’s really, really significantly touched my life. And we’ll discuss it at the end of this teaching, but first, I want you guys to take a listen to Lysa, Joel and Kendra unpack a little bit more about this topic.

Kendra: Hey everybody, and welcome to week two of our Trustworthy Online Bible Study. I’m joined again by Lysa TerKeurst, who is the author, and Joel Muddamalle, who is our director of theology at Proverbs 31 Ministries. And this week, we’re studying two kings and I’m going to attempt my best to say their names, but y’all will correct me if not. Rehoboam.

Lysa: You got it.

Kendra: I got it. Okay, one down. Jeroboam?

Lysa: Very good.

Joel: Wow.

Kendra: Oh, my gosh, you guys. [crosstalk 00:03:50] Thank you guys so much. Maybe you’ll be able to say the name of the kings by the end of the week. We’ll see. But this week, we get to see Lysa’s teaching video at the end of the week. And Lysa, you are standing in front of a high place, is that correct? Is that correct? Is that what’s it’s called?

Lysa: That’s right. Yes.

Kendra: And so, I would love for y’all to speak into a little bit about what a high place is for those of us who may not know.

Lysa: Well, let’s give a little context first. So last week, we’ve talked about Saul, David, Solomon.

Kendra: Yes.

Lysa: So first king, second king, third king, in the line of kings.

Kendra: Great.

Lysa: Solomon, of course, David’s son. David and Saul, not related.

Joel: Not related.

Lysa: So David comes from a different lineage. It’s the lineage of Jesse. And that obviously is also the lineage that you keep following down all the way to King Jesus.

Joel: Jesus.

Lysa: Okay, so that’s important.

Kendra: Yes.

Lysa: But Solomon’s son now is king over all of Israel, Rehoboam.

Kendra: Got it.

Lysa: So Rehoboam becomes king. Rehoboam, I think there’s a very pivotal moment in his life where he decides ... He has to make the decision if he’s going to take the advice of the younger men or the older men. And Solomon has spent many years building not only the temple, but also his palace.

Joel: [crosstalk 00:05:11] Palace, yeah.

Lysa: And we unearthed a very interesting fact about that. What was the interesting fact?

Joel: Yeah, he actually took twice the time to build his own personal palace than he took to build the actual temple, or [inaudible 00:05:23] temple of God.

Kendra: Really?

Joel: It’s unbelievable.

Lysa: Yes, and so because the workers were the Israelites, and I think they were from the tribes of Joseph’s lineage, right?

Joel: Yeah.

Lysa: They were the construction workers and the ones that are, really they’re physically taxed in having to build so much. And so Jeroboam was one of Solomon’s advisers. So Jeroboam becomes an advocate for the people and says to Solomon, “You’re working the people too hard.” And there’s a falling out and Jeroboam gets exiled to Egypt.

Joel: He runs, yeah. Egypt always shows up. It’s so interesting how Egypt just kind of keeps showing its face every now and then.

Lysa: Right? So now Rehoboam is Solomon’s son; he’s in charge. And when he gets the advice of the younger men and the older men, the older men say, “Be gentle with the people. Your father was too harsh, made them work too hard. And so if you will be kind and compassionate with them, they will love you and they will serve you.”

Joel: Forever.

Lysa: Forever.

Joel: Like they will be your people.

Lysa: And then he goes, Rehoboam gets the advice of the younger men and the younger men say “no.” [crosstalk 00:06:42].

Kendra: Simply [crosstalk 00:06:42].

Joel: It’s a lot worse than that.

Lysa: Yes, you need to be even more harsh with the people and kind of bow up and establish your leadership by being even more strict and severe with them. And unfortunately, he listens to the younger men. So, there is this great moment where the people basically decide “We don’t want Rehoboam as the king,” and there’s a revolt. And so Rehoboam runs, and to honor David, Rehoboam, who is David’s grandson, is allowed to still be the King of the Southern tribes. But it’s a much smaller section. By this point, Jeroboam has come back from Egypt —

Kendra: Oh, he’s back.

Lysa: — and now he gets placed by God in the position of being King of all the Northern.

Joel: Northern tribes.

Lysa: And everything is fine. So this is where it starts to get a little confusing in our study because now the kingdom has split. So we’ve got the Northern tribes and the Southern. Okay? So Rehoboam is in fact —

Kendra: There’s a nice diagram in Trustworthy too to show that. The Northern and the Southern.

Lysa: Yes, and that’s one of the reasons we did the diagram because it can get a little confusing.

Kendra: Complicated.

Lysa: But Jeroboam now has been placed by God in this position and he starts to get worried that when the people go to Jerusalem, which is part of the Southern kingdom, which is where Rehoboam is, that their affection is going to turn back to Rehoboam. And it’s important for the people to go to Jerusalem because that’s where the temple is.

Joel: Yeah, [inaudible 00:08:24] do sacrifice, festivals, [crosstalk 00:00:08:27].

Lysa: That’s right. And these are ordained by God to do these. So these are very honoring of God. But Jeroboam starts to get scared and said, [crosstalk 00:08:33] I don’t really want the people going down there because they may see what Rehoboam’s doing. They may like him better. They may turn their [crosstalk 00:08:40].

Joel: Panic and insecurity.

Lysa: Yes, and because of his insecurity, instead of taking a step back and saying, “Wow, God has put me in this place and I will stay here as long as God wants me here.” Instead of that, I think he starts to get very enamored with the position that he’s been given. And so he says, “What can I do to keep the people from going down to Jerusalem? Or the people who still go to Jerusalem, I’ve got to give them a reason to come back.” So Jeroboam sets up two alternate places of worship, one in Tel Dan and one in Bethel. He builds high places and he sets up golden calves.

Joel: Which should send off some reminders of an Exodus story to us.

Kendra: Right. [crosstalk 00:09:26].

Lysa: That’s right. And he dishonors God by changing the place of worship, changing the dates and setting alternate places besides the temple of God for the people to go to because he’s more concerned about keeping the hearts of the people attracted to him than obedient to God. So I was very fascinated in this story and I remember asking our guides over in Israel, as we were driving to Tel Dan to film this week’s video, what is a high place? Because I’ve always pictured it... Tell me what you pictured like when you’ve read in the Bible a high place. What have you pictured?

Kendra: I’m going to be honest, just something that’s above the level ground. So like a little mountain top or just like a ... something above the people. Yeah.

Lysa: Okay, and what did you picture before we saw it?

Joel: I think I just pictured some type of monstrous, massive building object that you would have. I just think of dark, you know?

Lysa: So I pictured almost like a deer stand. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen a deer stand. I just pictured like this little wooden structure with idols hanging down, and I don’t know, like here’s the mountain and then you’ve got little high places on the mountain. So I don’t know why, it’s certainly an elevated structure, but I pictured it in my mind is just like this little deer stand thing.

Kendra: I love that.

Lysa: Then when we got there, I remember my guide saying, “No, Lysa, a high place? It’s a stage, a platform or a pulpit.” And I remember when she said that, it kind of arrested my heart because that’s not at all what I expected. And sure enough, when we went to Tel Dan and we saw the high place that’s still there that Jeroboam built, it really is, it has steps that go up and it’s this big platform. And the important thing to recognize is how that altar, or stage, platform, pulpit — how it’s used determines who it worships. So if we put things on this stage, platform, or pulpit, that just glorify ourselves or put on demonstration or distrust of God, which is what Jeroboam did, then it becomes a high place worship being not God himself.

That’s very relevant to us today, and you think, “Oh well, I’m not a preacher, I don’t have a pulpit, I don’t have a stage.” But in today’s social media world, we all have platforms, and even if you only have a few people that are following you or looking at whatever it is that you’re posting, or even if you’re in leadership in any way, if you are influencing another person, you have a platform. It doesn’t require social media, but certainly I bring that up because I think social media has given everybody who’s on it a platform. Then we have a real responsibility to use that platform in a way that glorifies and honors God, or to put on display our own areas of distrusting God and glorify or honor ourself, glorify or honor our political position, glorify or honor our opinions. And so it became very applicable to me.

Joel: Yeah, that’s so good.

Lysa: And I felt very challenged by it. So that’s what you’ll get to see in this week’s video.

Kendra: Wow. Stage, a pulpit, or...

Lysa: Platform.

Kendra: Platform. That’s good. So you mentioned there was... I feel like there’s going to be a lot of lessons on control and maybe giving up control or taking control on trying to manipulate situations in this week’s study, but what are some other things that we can look out for that are relevant to us today? What other lessons?

Joel: Yeah, I think one of the things I love about this study and one thing that Lysa brings out is also images of the story of the people of Israel. Not just in 1 and 2 Kings, but also the retold story from the past. And so I kind of joked a little bit earlier about these golden calves, but again, it’s one of those reminders that, wait, this isn’t the first time a golden calf shows up. And even the language that Jeroboam uses in order to describe these are the golden calves that have brought you out of Egypt. And you’re thinking, wait a minute, is that the real story? Did the golden calves actually bring them out of Egypt? Who brought? And it goes back to this idea of trust, and going back to our stories, and that’s what was real personal for me…of thinking, “Oh yeah, Joel, who delivered me in my times of distress.”

And it’s easy at times to think, well, I kind of did this, or somebody did that, but not to really pay attention to the fact that actually it was God. God’s story, God’s fingerprints are in all of this. And so I think that’s one of the exciting things that you’ll see as the kings and as the people look back on their past story, it helps us, encourages us, to kind of — I always talk about it as a theology of remembrance, building this theology of remembrance of what has the Lord done in my life and how should that actually inform how I think about my future.

Lysa: I think for me, it’s a reminder to me that fear is a real litmus test of where my trust is and where my dependence is. So sometimes when we feel afraid, then we have the greatest opportunity to put on display either trusting God or distrusting God. And I don’t say it lightly because certainly I understand how tough fear can be. And I know what it feels like to look ahead, and in my human estimation, see nothing but threatening circumstances, and feel so afraid that I start to want to control anything I can control to eliminate and take away some of the sting of fear. Because fear is really difficult. And so I don’t at all diminish the intense feelings of fear, but I do think, how can we, even in the face of fear, learn to trust God? And I think this week will be very profound for people, and certainly it is a good lesson that we can learn from Jeroboam.

I think also what shocked me is Jeroboam... Yes, he built these high places, and yes, he manipulated the people and tried to take control, and yes, he felt afraid, and out of that fear came his distrust of the Lord. But I can’t say that, in my estimation, I would have thought about Jeroboam then being the king, that all the rest of the kings who are evil are compared to. But as we keep reading through these books, the good kings are compared to David and the evil kings are compared to Jeroboam.

Kendra: Oh, that’s interesting.

Lysa: When I look at what Jeroboam did, I go, “Wow, this fear that Jeroboam had that led him to control and manipulate and lead other people away from being obedient to God was a much bigger deal to God than what I ever estimated before.”

So I think it’s really important to address. It’s not something to go, “Oh, I’m a fearful person. I don’t want to be considered an evil person.” So that’s why it’s so important to do this week. That’s why it’s so important that we study the patterns of distrust so that we can identify where they’re at in our own life. And trust is kind of one of those things that unless we have someone else speaking into us of how to get from here to here, like from a place of distrust to a place of trusting, from a place of fear, control, manipulation to a place of walking with an obedient heart to God. Sometimes you’ve got to have somebody else outline that path for you. And that’s what this week’s study will do.

Kendra: That’s good. And you mentioned having somebody else speak into your situation. Hopefully you listened to maybe the wise counsel and not the younger ones. It’s good to have somebody there that might be ahead of you in the faith so they can speak into your situation and then hopefully take that advice. But I haven’t taken it all the time. So I’m excited to study this week. Thank you both so much and we’re excited for you to dig into Scripture because we know once you do that, you will learn it and you will live it and then it changes everything. So let’s say the tagline, when you know the truth and live the truth, it changes everything.

Lysa: When you know the truth and live the truth, it changes everything.

Joel: When you know the truth and live the truth, it changes everything.

Kendra: Have a good week too, everybody.

Kaley: That was so good, Mer. Every time I hear that teaching, and it’s got to be the third or fourth time that I’ve listened to that, I’m always so challenged every time I listen to that. And I want to give a quick recap for our listeners. And then, Meredith, I want you to share how the Lord just impacted your life [crosstalk 00:18:34].

Meredith: Yeah, absolutely.

Kaley: So in this teaching, Lysa said, God is faithful to keep his promises despite the unfaithfulness of his people. And then, the safest place for me is in the center of God’s will. Incredible. Whatever captivates our heart fuels our actions. And then, if we stray from God’s word, we will stray from God himself. So Meredith, why don’t you share with the listeners [crosstalk 00:19:00].

Meredith: Yeah, well those takeaways alone right there. I mean, you could sit and think and meditate on those all day long. There’s a lot of that you could really implement in your life if you spent some time thinking about those.

But for me specifically, when Lysa was teaching about this in Israel, for me, I remember we were standing in this kind of weird national park that we had to take this Gator back in to get to the right place to be able to film. And as she was teaching about Jeroboam, I was just remembering in my own life, I was facing some things at the time that I really felt like the Lord had made some promises to me. And he had made them in the past and I hadn’t seen them fully come to pass yet. If I’m honest, I was kind of afraid that they were never going to come to reality. I kind of saw in the story of Jeroboam that I wonder if that’s how he felt. Like God made him this promise that he was going to be King and he was going to rule God’s people, but he got afraid because he was like, “Man, they’re going to go to the other kingdom and they’re going to go down there to worship. What if they never come back?” You know?

So then Jeroboam goes and he starts hustling. And how many times am I guilty of that, right? Of me trying to fulfill God’s promises to me? Because if I’m really honest, I don’t think he’ll come through. I want to say that I really, really believe that he’s going to come through, but I find myself thinking, man, he’s got so many bigger things to worry about. What’s my one little promise or maybe even like, did I hear him right? Like, did I really hear? Was that really a promise that he made me? And I tend to come up with solutions of my own because I think God doesn’t want to take care of me or take care of it, the promise he made to me, and he needs my help somehow to actually make it happen. When, in reality, that is just not what Scripture says. God doesn’t do that. He doesn’t forget. He doesn’t make a promise and ever break it.

When I was in my twenties, I had an older lady mentoring me and she used to say to me all the time, “Meredith, if God ever breaks one promise, he can no longer be God.” And it sat with me my whole life ever since that conversation. Because I can go back to that and say, “Okay, he has to fulfill his promise. He has to, because if he doesn’t, then he’s no longer God.” So really for me it was such a good reminder. This teaching was such a good reminder that I don’t need to take things into my own hands. I don’t need to hustle and maneuver to fulfill God’s promises for me. I really can just obey him and trust that he is who he says he is and who he is fully trustworthy.

Kaley: That is so good, Meredith, and I love that you just in being on set there for that filming got to take away that. But I think also the fact that you had a takeaway from that teaching was because you’re studying the Bible and context with a community of people who help guide you in processing your trust issues.

Meredith: That’s right. That’s right.

Kaley: Like if I were to think about... Is it Jeroboam?

Meredith: Yes.

Kaley: [crosstalk 00:22:21] Jeroboam. If it were Jeroboam back in the day, building another temple where he wasn’t supposed to, who in his life wasn’t speaking into his own personal trust issues there?

Meredith: Right. That’s right.

Kaley: And if you’re listening, I know trust issues are never ever fun to talk about. We don’t want to talk about those.

Meredith: Hurts.

Kaley: But the proper place to talk about them is in community with people who are like-minded believers.

Meredith: That’s right.

Kaley: And what better place to do that than with Proverbs 31 Ministries Online Bible Studies.

Meredith: That’s right.

Kaley: And you can do that today. Right now, we are in the middle of doing Trustworthy and you can access these videos that we’ve talked about where this content from the podcast today came from.

Meredith: Yes, you can actually see where we filmed this.

Kaley: Yes. Yes, you can. And we have things like small groups and online Bible studies, we have Facebook posts all the time. Melissa and Kendra host them and they’re the perfect combination of hilarious and just deep down Bible lovers. They’re great.

Meredith: I love it.

Kaley: But we have literally thousands, like almost, I’m sure like hundreds of thousands of women studying all the time with us at Proverbs 31. And I just think right now, if you’re in a situation where you need to process things or you’re looking for guidance on how to understand what the Lord is doing in your life and how to trust him more, then you need to sign up for an online Bible study today. And so if you want to do that, you can go to Proverbs31.org and click study and it will take you exactly where you need to go.

Meredith: Yeah, hit that online Bible studies tab, and if you don’t happen to have a copy of the study, we would love to encourage you to zip right on over to P31bookstore.com, grab your copy, sign up for the online Bible study, and come and unpack. Unpack your trust issues with us in a biblical community.

Kaley: Absolutely, and let’s just mention here that every time you make a purchase from Proverbs31.org or the P31 bookstore, that a portion of your purchase goes back to support the ministry.

Meredith: Absolutely.

Kaley: And so while you’re shopping and buying Trustworthy or whatever else you see on our bookstore, you’re also helping support us financially.

Meredith: That’s right.

Kaley: Well, friends, that’s about all the time we have left today. Thank you so much for listening. We pray that what you heard helps you know the truth and live the truth of God’s Word. We’ll see you next time.