The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast

Shae Hill:
Thanks for tuning into The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast. My name is Shae Hill, and I'm so happy to be with you today alongside my friend and teammate Meredith Brock.

Meredith Brock:
Well, hey, Ms. Shae.

Shae Hill:
Hi.

Meredith Brock:
It's good to be here. We just had a fantastic conversation with our friend Jennifer Ellers from the American Association of Christian Counselors, talking about a situation that I think we have all been in, where — let's play it out a little bit, Shae — your next-door neighbor comes over and dumps. Maybe she tells you about her infertility journey. Maybe she tells you about some marriage problems that she has, and maybe she wants some parenting advice. You don't know, but you don't know what to say.

Shae Hill:
Yeah.

Meredith Brock:
And so Jennifer joined us today to help us unpack that situation a little bit more and offer some advice on what to do. So I'm so excited. Here we go. Let's jump into the conversation.

Shae Hill:
Today we're joined by a special guest and really a dear friend Jennifer. Jennifer, will you please introduce yourself to our listeners?

Jennifer Ellers:
Yes, ladies, it's so great to be with you. My name is
Jennifer Ellers. I work with the American Association of Christian Counselors. I am a counselor myself by background. I also do a lot of crisis response and chaplaincy. I work in areas of grief, crisis and trauma. Also do life coaching. I do many, many things for the AACC, including doing some work in our publishing division. But I'm just so excited to be here and talk with you today. I think it's a really important topic.

Meredith Brock:
Yeah, Jennifer, I have been looking forward to this episode for a really long time, for months now, because what we're going to be talking about is something I think all of our listeners have found themselves caught in this situation where maybe somebody's sharing something with you. It's a friend; it's a coworker, an employee even, or maybe like a mutual parent. I've been caught in this situation. I've got three kids, and they share something with you, and you are like, "Oh, boy, how do I respond to this?" And I know that our listeners have had this experience too, and so I am really excited for us to jump in. I can't wait to learn. And I know our listeners have a lot to learn as well.

Shae Hill:
Yeah, I know for sure. And I think when I think about even our jobs at Proverbs 31 Ministries, we spend a lot of time interacting with our audience in the ways that we can get feedback from them. And so, comments, DMs, podcast reviews, even written-in testimonials. And while I feel like we do a great job of really walking in our lane and providing biblical resources, we definitely are not counselors. Jennifer, you are a counselor. Shae and Meredith? Well, actually, Meredith does have a counseling degree, so I shouldn't say we're not counselors, but that is not our profession at this current time.

Meredith Brock:
No.

Shae Hill:
But I think we find ourselves in a lot of situations where we're having those types of conversations, where I wish I had some counseling resources in my repertoire to pull from. So I know you talked a little bit about your professional background, but on a day-to-day basis, what does your role look like with AACC, which we'll call it AACC for the rest of our conversation, just for abbreviation's sake?

Jennifer Ellers:
Yeah. Well, it's varied, and I have many different hats that I wear, and part of it is speaking and training and educating. The American Association of Christian Counselors is an organization, and one of our main focuses are for professional counselors who consider themselves faith-based. So psychologists, social workers, counselors, marriage and family therapists, they come to us for training, resourcing and education. But what a lot of people don't know is that we also have a huge ministry to anyone in the Christian faith who is, what we would say, in a caring ministry or does a caring job, where they're caring for the emotional, spiritual, relational needs of others. Pastors are a big part of what we do, life coaches, and then also layhelpers in the church, people involved in ministries, whether it's marriage ministry or youth ministry. Basically, if you're dealing with people, you're dealing with struggles and emotion and challenging situations.

And like you said, almost everybody is in a situation, sooner or later, where someone comes to them with a problem that feels daunting, overwhelming, and maybe it isn't even something earth-shattering like terrible abuse or trauma or suicide. Maybe it is, but maybe it's just, "I'm having this struggle in my marriage. My relationship with my daughter is not good. Here's what's happening with one of my kids. Here's what's happening with my parent." And it feels like we are in water that we don't understand. And so, one of our goals at AACC is to equip not just caring professionals that are licensed mental health professionals but the church. So we want to do that, where we give you more resources, because we know that it's not just mental health professionals who are caring for one another, but we as Christians are really mandated to bear one another's burdens, biblically. So we want to equip people to do that more effectively.

Shae Hill:
I love that. And I love how you listed out some examples of it's not always the big earth-shattering, life-forming, life-season-changing situation. Sometimes you're just like, "Is there anyone who can help me figure out this problem I'm having or this conversation that needs to happen but I don't know how to have it? Or a conversation that didn't go well, or this thing I keep tripping up." I think a lot of people resonate with that in addition to obviously the big things that they're wrestling with. So in your field, Jennifer, what kind of statistics do you have about people who might find themselves in that situation and they're seeking professional help?

Jennifer Ellers:
Well, that's a great question. First of all, and these numbers are going up by the way, but about just under 20% for a long time of people in general would seek mental health professional help, meaning help from a licensed mental health professional. That has started to creep up and get a little higher, going over 20% in the last few years. And there are some differences, though, in terms of who these people are. Those are broad numbers. Women seek help more than men. And one thing I'm encouraged by is that that 18 to 44 age group, so a little bit younger, are actually more apt to seek help. Still, here's a startling statistic that I think is really troubling. Those that we know have a mental health problem or condition. So somebody who has been diagnosed or is struggling with something like depression or anxiety or post-traumatic stress disorder, only about a third of those people that have a true mental health issue are actually getting treatment from a mental health professional for that.

Shae Hill:
Wow.

Jennifer Ellers:
The numbers are still really low.

Meredith Brock:
Wow, that is shocking to think it's only a third. You said, I want to make sure I'm understanding that, one-third of those who have been professionally diagnosed are getting help?

Jennifer Ellers:
Right. Maybe by their doctor or something. They know they have symptoms of mental health concern. I even know that people in my family, their doctor would say, "You really need to see a therapist because the hives you're experiencing or some of your symptoms are not physiological; they're more psychological."

Meredith Brock:
Yeah.

Jennifer Ellers:
And the pushback there then is, "Oh wait, I'll go to my family doctor, or I'll take some of those medicines, but when you ask me to go to counseling, different issue."

Meredith Brock:
Yeah. What do you think is holding them back, Jennifer? What's that apprehension there?

Jennifer Ellers:
Well, and there are a few issues, and the big one — and I think the one you kind of alluded to that apprehension — is for a long time, it's been the stigma. "You want me to see a therapist? That must mean I'm crazy or there's something wrong with me." And the stigma of that. And it's heartbreaking for me, and as mental health professionals, we want to say, "No, all of us have struggles. We all have struggles with our mental health, and there should be no shame or stigma." And, let me say, it's gotten better. That's why we see those 18 to 44 age group a little more willing to say, "There's nothing wrong with saying, 'Hey, I've got a struggle here. Because our brain is just another organ. It's no different than our heart or our kidneys or our lungs.'" But people seem to think it's different, and removing that stigma will help.

But there are also significant issues of both affordability and access that make it hard, and understandably hard. Let me say that still there are a lot of people whose health insurance doesn't cover mental health the same way it does physical health. They may have fewer or no resources to see a counselor. It may not be covered. And counseling is not cheap. It can be very pricey and expensive, even though I know that Christian counselors really try to make affordable options and have accessibility. But what's happened is, with that increased need for counseling that we've seen in the last few years and more people taking advantage of that, I'll be honest, it's harder and harder to get in to see a counselor. And, prior to the pandemic, prior to 2020, I could almost always find a referral to a good Christian counselor. If someone wanted to see one, it was pretty easy to give them two or three names. It is significantly harder now to find someone that doesn't have a long waiting list.

And so there are several barriers, and that's why I think it's so important that more people in the church have more education, more understanding, because, to be honest, people may not even be able to see a counselor. There are these barriers that they may have to work through, and hopefully we'll eventually get them to that. But we know that we need caring people with some more understanding of how to have those conversations with people. Because a lot of people don't even know, "Do I need to see a counselor for this or not?"

Shae Hill:
Yeah, for sure. I'm glad that you talk about the stigma a little bit. Because I feel like that's one of those things that we have made progress in, but I still kind of catch myself even holding on to old ways of thinking. For example, if someone in my community group at church or a friend that I'm close with says, "Oh, my husband and I are in marriage counseling," my brain automatically is like, "Oh, no."

Meredith Brock:
Yeah.

Shae Hill:
Like, "I wonder why." When really that's not always the case. I've heard people say, even as I was in premarital counseling, sometimes the best times to go are when there's nothing like [a] hot-button issue going on; you just want to do a check-in. And sometimes those really important conversations come up. But I think for a lot of us, even if we've come long way in accepting the need and space for counseling in our lives, we find ourselves in that old way of thinking.

And as you were just talking about people not accepting professional help, it does make me think, OK, if someone has these barriers, if someone has these obstacles, whether they're aware or not aware, chances are they're probably talking to someone in their life about what's going on. Or, like you said, if they have an actual diagnosis, maybe just someone else in their family is aware of the things that they're facing. And so, I know that we've probably all been on the receiving end of conversations where someone opened up to us about one of those things. So I'd love for all of us to share just anything that we have found people commonly sharing or just things that we're coming across in conversation that could be a potential place where someone could use some more therapeutic help and insight. Do you want to get us started, Mer?

Meredith Brock:
Yeah. I have so many of these.

Shae Hill:
OK.

Meredith Brock:
When you first started talking about this, and we knew we were going to have this conversation today, I went straight back to ... guys, I was 21, maybe 22, years old and doing youth ministry. Those kids will talk to you about anything.

Shae Hill:
Yeah, they will.

Meredith Brock:
And I'm 21 years old, 22. I'm barely ... I had become a believer when I was like 17.

Shae Hill:
Yeah.

Meredith Brock:
And these kids are opening up to me as, "She has the answers," and I'm like, "I don't though."

Shae Hill:
I feel like a youth myself. Yeah.

Meredith Brock:
Oh my gosh. And I remember feeling so unequipped as like, I'm on staff at this church. And so, thankfully, we did have people in our lives, but I had kids coming to me who were talking about how — and now in retrospect, I'm 43, I've got so many more years under my belt — their parents were fighting.
I had multiple kids when I was in there, and had I known then what I know now, I would have absolutely recommended some kind of mental health help for them because they were showing all the signs of depression, significant anxiety — and these are middle school and high schoolers — because their parents are having marital problems. And I was just, "OK, I'll listen." But that's all I knew to do at the time was listen. I also ... it's so funny how these change as the seasons of your life change, where you start having different kinds of conversations. So here I am, this young buck in youth ministry. Now fast-forward, I'm 43 years old; I've been married 18 years. My family does foster care. Some of the things that come to my mind immediately now is man, the amount of conversations I have with other foster parents that I'm like, "Oh man, you have caregiver burnout big time."

Shae Hill:
Ooh, yeah.

Meredith Brock:
And you are totally compassion blocked, and you need mental health help.

Shae Hill:
Yeah.

Meredith Brock:
When you've been married 18 years, you start to see some of your friends that they got married at the same time as you, and they start having significant marriage problems. And I've walked with multiple friends through seasons where their spouse was unfaithful, and so walking with friends, and so it's taken on, looking back on it now, I'm like, man, I really was put in a lot of positions in my life where people were trusting me with really sensitive information and hoping that I could help them in some way, shape or form, but I really felt pretty ill-equipped a lot of those times.

Shae Hill:
Yeah, for sure. And I know we're in a different season of life as far as where we're at with families and marriage and all of that. I've been married almost two years, but I'm in that season of life where my friends are growing their families. And so something that comes up a lot right now is infertility or miscarriage or both. And, I mean, you have said, I feel ill-equipped. I think that is one of those scenarios that you feel ill-equipped, and it's definitely one of those situations where, if you haven't been through that, then you definitely don't want to say the wrong thing. Because it just feels so sensitive. And then, another thing that I find coming up is a lot of conversation around addiction and recovery and having conversations around those things with different people where they fall in different places of that cycle and those seasons.
And I think that another thing is, sometimes we're having these conversations with people where we can empathize, we can be compassionate [and] we can listen. But there is kind of a moment where they turn and almost look at you a little bright-eyed, and they're kind of hoping you have something to say. And if you just haven't walked in their shoes, every situation is so unique and specific; I just sometimes find myself feeling very cautious to really say anything in those situations. So, Jennifer, I don't know if there's anything you want to add to that before I have a follow-up question that I want some help with from you?

Jennifer Ellers:
Well, let me say, first of all, thank you guys for sharing that. And I want to see if I can do just a little paradigm shift, not just for you guys but for the people out there, because I think everybody, not everybody, but a lot of people have the feeling that you described, "Oh no, you're bringing this to me, and I don't know how to fix it," right?

Shae Hill:
Yes.

Jennifer Ellers:
First of all, let me say, I want to shift to just say what an honor that someone trusted you enough to share something so intimate, so personal and so potentially stigmatizing.

Shae Hill:
Yeah.

Jennifer Ellers:
What that means is, first let me say, if somebody has opened up to you out there with something big like this, the first thing it means is they feel safe enough with you to say it.

Congratulations. You've done something in relating to them that gave them the opening because studies still show that many, many people, maybe about half, don't have anyone in their life that they talk with about deeply personal issues. So that means they trusted you enough or they felt like you were a trustworthy enough, safe enough person to say this to. Applause to you; kudos to you. That means you have interacted with them in a way that made them feel cared for and safe. Secondly, I want to shift the paradigm from thinking, They're telling me this because they want me to fix it.

One of the biggest things I say in training is, the biggest mistake we make is trying to fix a problem; that's really not what the person needs. And the truth is, if they came to you and said, "My tire is flat," that's different. "I have a flat tire on my car." They are looking for you not to say, "I'm so sorry. That's got to be so hard."

Meredith Brock:
Yeah.

Jennifer Ellers:
They're looking for you to say, "I've got a jack. I'll help you fix it," or "Let's go fix the flat." I don't know that I could do that, but they are looking probably for some real help. But the emotional situations you talked about, whether it's, "My parents are fighting; I'm experiencing depression, anxiety," or definitely things like infertility or a miscarriage, those are things that, number one, in many cases, no one can fix, especially death and trauma and the things that are going on that. If you are having fertility problems, or you've lost a child, or a loved one has died, or your spouse wants a divorce, we can't fix that. And the truth is, trying to fix it, trying to say something that will make it not as bad or trying to say something that will make them feel better in the face of really painful things is actually not what people need. What they need is what both of you said you do.

The first thing is listen. And listen with care. And I bet that you both did that in all of those situations you described, and that's actually the first thing we teach. Now, there is more that you can do, but I think when you're able to flip that switch from, "Oh no, I have to fix this big thing" — by the way, counselors can't fix most of that either — that you start with the first thing: caring and listening. And that's actually one of the most important elements in responding to people who are hurting: to just really listen and listen with care and compassion.

Shae Hill:
That's so good. I mean, to your point, I'm just sitting here thinking, I'm like, I actually am powerless to fix a lot of those things. So why would I assume the responsibility to step in and fill that and to fix that when I'm really powerless too? OK. You mentioned, listen, will you tell us some other things when we're having a conversation, like the next time that I'm at community group and one of the ladies in my group shares something with me or a friend or whoever. You said, listen, but what are some other practical things that we can do? And then what would you say are some things not to do, some things to avoid? So kind of do's and don'ts, if you can ... that would be really helpful.

Jennifer Ellers:
Great question. And the first thing to do is, I would say, both emotionally and maybe physically, so nonverbally, is lean in. When someone shares something so hard and intimate, the last thing you want to do, and you may have to check your spirit here, is go ... pushback, meaning pull back from them emotionally and physically because you're frightened. And that's the difference between the people who are right for caring ministry or going into counseling and the people who ... by the way, this may not be the ministry for you or this, and it is, "Do you have the capacity when someone tells you something really hard to lean into that and want to be present with them?" And then, in addition to listening, and this is sort of one of those counseling skills that we can, by the way, teach also, not just professional counselors, but that is: Do they know that you're really hearing them?

People want to be heard and understood, and that means you're listening for the story itself and making sure you've got it right. So, doing some of those good communication skills, like, "So this is what happened?" But also listening for the emotion behind it. What are they really experiencing? "It sounds like you're really angry. It sounds like you're really scared or you feel very betrayed." OK, so you want to make sure that you're hearing the emotion behind this. And then, also then validating that emotion. And even, "That has to be really hard." Is there a time when you did go through something like that? Maybe you didn't. And so, even if you have gone through something like that, what we don't want to say is, "I know how you feel." We don't want to turn it into, "Well, let me tell you about my story of infertility."

But you want to validate how they must be feeling, what you hear them saying, and they want to feel that connection that says, "I'm so sorry. That's got to be really hard. And I care." Sometimes the best thing is to ask a question, and we think we have to give an answer or advice, and that's what I would say actually. Try to avoid giving advice. Again, if it's something practical, like again, "Where do you get your nails done? They look so good." They're asking for advice. Or, "What do you use to clean your windows?" Now, somebody may say, if they know that you struggled with a particular issue, if they know that you've battled depression, they may say, "What's helped you?" And you can answer that. But if you don't know, if this is not something you've experienced, ask the questions. Ask real questions that you want to know because asking those questions will help them tell you more about the story.

That usually does help, and it'll also give you some information that may help you understand more about what they're dealing with. Because being able to share that takes away the stigma. And if you're being affirming, and you're kind, and you're compassionate, and you don't look at them like, "Oh, you're a weirdo," then that is starting to, again, take away that stigma. Because I've shared this really hard thing with someone, and not only are they not avoiding me, they seem to really care and are being engaged with me. And the truth is, the majority of people really need to feel connected.

Because what mental health issues do is make us feel isolated. And that feeling of connection that they have when somebody's really listening and caring and asking questions that are helpful makes them feel heard and understood and like, "OK, so I'm not crazy." Someone can really hear this and have compassion even if you don't have answers. And sometimes through, those questions you ask and the answers they give might lead you to have a thought or a recommendation, especially if you have a little more training and experience. And we have a lot of programs at AACC that are designed to train laypeople, not professionals, in how to understand these issues a little better and then give them a little more knowledge to go, "This is a serious situation that you want to get professional help with." Or "You know what? That's normal. Everybody feels that sometimes."

And being able to normalize something and people go, "Whew, I thought I was going crazy." Or "I thought I really did need to see a therapist, but now I'm realizing that everybody goes through this kind of feeling when they've lost a loved one, and it's just grief." Does that make sense?

Shae Hill:
Absolutely.

Meredith Brock:
Yeah.

Shae Hill:
It makes total sense.

Meredith Brock:
Super, this is really helpful, I think, practical things for us to reflect on how we respond and how we're even processing as we're trying to care for somebody who's going through something hard. We talked a little bit about church a little bit ago.

Shae Hill:
Like pastoral care and ...

Meredith Brock:
Yeah, pastoral care, pastor's wives, I think, I mean, I was a worship pastor's wife for a while, and somehow you really do end up in this situation where people come to you and want to talk to you about things that are very personal and are very sensitive. And I know AACC really loves the church, and so I would love to hear from you, Jennifer. I know you guys consider the church kind of the first line of defense. Talk to me a little bit about that, about how the AACC has really connected with the church in this way.

Jennifer Ellers:
Absolutely. And our mission is to make the church worldwide more caring, more open to people with mental health issues. And I've heard our president, Dr. Tim Clinton, say the mission field is a lot in mental health and behavioral health right now, because people who are deeply hurting, if they feel like the church is a place that will embrace and welcome hurting people in, and by the way, that's foundational to who we are as Christians, right? That's who we are for hurting, broken people in need of grace. And whether that is in the area of mental health or not, the truth is, that's where we want people to feel like they can come and be embraced and be loved, that grace is there for you with all of those struggles and more. So, we want though people in the church to be equipped so that they don't have that pushback response that we just talked about.

And people who are coming there wanting to be embraced by Christianity, by the church and by Christ don't feel rejected because we're like, "I don't think we can handle you. You're too much." That's not what we want. So by giving people an education, first of all, on mental health issues, especially, and I'm not saying everybody in the church has to do this, but there are people who are really equipped and called either by their spiritual gifts, by their personal experience, what God has brought them through, that they really want to minister in this arena. And we've created some training programs to help them be more effective at being that frontline so that they know how to talk about mental health issues. They have enough understanding to understand what's normal, what's really a sign or indicator that you would probably need professional help, and how to make those referrals.

And so we want the church to be able to respond with confidence to hurting people and not to make them feel like, "OK, well that's too much," or even to oversimplify the answers, because we do believe that Christ is the answer to all healing, but we don't want to say, "Well, all you need to do is pray and believe, and your bipolar disorder will disappear." We don't want that. That's actually harmed a lot of people because a lot of people have said, "I'm going off my medicine. I'm not going back to my doctor. I'm just going to have faith." And then it gets worse. So we want them to be equipped enough to know that things like certain mental health issues or addictions or things need both the support of the church and caring people and Christ in their life but may also need some professional help or even medications, things like that, that then that person has the best opportunity to really heal and become who God wants them to be.

Shae Hill:
That's so good. I'm so glad that you got to share that. Because I know a lot of people are probably going, as you kind of talk about, Meredith, people that you think of when you want to go to someone for help, I feel like the local church is a place for that. So I love hearing how you guys are partnering with them and equipping them. So we kind of talked about organizationally or institutionally with the church, how you guys are equipping them, but inside AACC, how are you guys equipping and targeting the individual person, like the Shae or the Meredith?

Jennifer Ellers:
Yeah. We have a program called our Mental Health Coach program that's really designed for an individual, preferably connected to a local church. So, there would be a number of individuals within any local church that would go through this training program. It's designed to go through individually at your own pace, and they could then be more trained and equipped.

Now, we want that though to be with the support of your pastor and your local church, so that then becomes a ministry of the church. And we know a lot of people though will want to start and take this on their own and then go to their pastor and say, "Hey, I've taken this. I hope you'll be in support of this." By the way, it is always best to do it through your local church, but the equipping that we provide through that program, even if you're not serving in that way in your church, it's just helpful because, like you said, people are going to come up to you ... if you are working in the nursery and a parent comes to pick up their kid, they may share, "Oh, I'm having this issue," or "I'm having this situation."

Every day people may come up to you and share, like you said, those difficult things. This just gives you a level of confidence that you are, number one, knowing how to listen, knowing what to say and what not to say, and then having a little more understanding so that things like depression, anxiety, those things don't terrify you. You have a little more understanding about that and can engage. And, like I said, it then gives you the confidence to lean into that conversation rather than go, "Oh, yeah, got to go. I got to run," because you're like, "I don't know what to say."

Meredith Brock:
Yeah. Yeah. Jennifer, I cannot tell you how much we love the AACC. I mean long before we had this deep of a partnership, I remember when we started this podcast, it was like, we get so many emails, so many phone calls, so many DMs with people who are truly in crisis and need a therapist. And so we have been pointing people to the AACC quite literally for years and years. And so when we heard about this Mental Health Coach training program, we got so excited because I can just see the dramatic need for it within the church but also for those people who truly do have the gift of caring, but they don't have the equipping.
And so it's such a fantastic program that we are so excited to get behind and really tell our listeners about because I can only imagine some of them right now are like, "Oh my gosh, I needed this yesterday because I was in this conversation with my best friend who's going through this thing, and I didn't know how to respond, or I didn't know, or I goofed up." Right? How many times have you done that, Shae? Where it's like —

Shae Hill:
I've had to ask for forgiveness many times.

Meredith Brock:
When you responded poorly because you just didn't know; you tried to dole out advice.

Shae Hill:
Yeah, you gave bad advice on accident. You had good intentions.

Meredith Brock:
Yes. You were just giving advice, and really it hurt more than it helped. And so, y'all, I am so excited to tell you this. I didn't even know this until today, when we sat down and looked at the details of this. I'm about to blow your mind. They are actually going to be giving away scholarships to the Mental Health Coach training program. Y'all, it's a $2,400 tuition to do this, which is still, in my opinion, like Shae alluded to, I have a master's degree in counseling. $2,400 is a steal. That's all I have to say, because I've seen the actual content of this program, and it's fantastic.

Shae Hill:
Yeah.

Meredith Brock:
And so $2,400, but right now they're giving it away for tuition-free. You just have to apply. And all you'll have to pay is this $54 small technology and service fee. It's just for the platform. But that is still wow. So here's what you got to do to apply. You are going to go to mentalhealthcoach.org or find the link in our podcast show notes, and you'll be able to apply right there for the scholarship. And so, we're so excited to be able to partner with you guys, Jennifer. We love the AACC. We believe in what you guys are doing so much and to be able to offer this benefit to our listeners is amazing. And so, thank you so much for coming on today and being willing to do that.

Shae Hill:
Yeah, thank you so much for what you do every single day, and thank you for sharing a little bit of your day with us. We're so excited for our listeners to learn from you. And I think we covered it all, Meredith.

Meredith Brock:
We sure did.

Shae Hill:
OK, friends at Proverbs 31 Ministries, we believe when you know the Truth and live the Truth, it changes everything. We'll see you next time.