The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast

Kaley:

Well, hello everyone, and thanks for tuning in to The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast, where we share biblical Truth for any girl in any season. I'm your host, Kaley Olson, and I'm here with my friend and my co-host, Shae Hill.

Shae:

Hey, Kaley.

Kaley:

Hey, Shae. Well, today is one of our favorite days, where we get to hear you and Dr. Joel Muddamalle dive into a topic from both a practical and a theological perspective. Just a refresher for our listeners who are tuning in maybe for the first time or maybe after a while, we've done several episodes with Joel and Shae here on things like "How Do I Know if I’m Making the Right Decision?" and "Why Am I So Afraid of Failure?" and "How Do I Know if I'm Reading My Bible Right?"

All of these episodes bring the theological side of Joel. I think in an episode previously, you were like, "Joel's the wow, and I bring the how." I bring them down, and I ask, "OK, how does this apply to the everyday listener?" I love these conversations that you guys have, because we're able to walk away with a deeper knowledge of what the Bible says about a topic but learn how to apply it to our lives directly. Today, what are we talking about?

Shae:

Yeah, so one of my favorite parts of these conversations with Joel is he's so humble in his approach to theology. He knows so much and yet as an average everyday Bible reader, I feel like I am just a part of the Proverbs 31 Ministries audience in the way that I can just be like, "I love everything you're saying, and I'm not quite sure what it means or what to do with it."

In today's conversation, it was really a question that I had for him of talking about this element of miracles. We read in Scripture ... In the Old Testament, there's some crazy miracles that happened, but also in the New Testament when Jesus was in walking with the disciples and they would ... Miracles happened all the time, like healings and just some wild, awesome things.

I was kind of asking Joel, "What does that look like in today's world? Does Jesus still perform miracles? Do these things still happen? What do we hang on to and hold on to when we're holding out for a personal miracle that we're waiting on?" I really think about prayer when it comes to this conversation. We talk about all of these things today. It's definitely a note-taking episode I would say.

If you are able to press “pause” and go grab your notebook and come back with a pen, I think that, that would really serve you well. He shares some incredible theological terms that I think will really help you process this conversation even with family and friends after you listen. I'm excited about it.

Kaley:

I love it. What's so incredible to me is how dynamic the Bible is, and then you guys can have a theological conversation on the topic of failure and also talk about miracles.

Shae:

Exactly.

Kaley:

It's just wild. I don't think we talk a lot about miracles these days, but I know it's something we all deep down are struggling with in an area because we're all hoping for a miracle.

Shae:

Totally.

Kaley:

I can't wait to hear what you guys discussed today, because I think it's going to bring some people a lot of hope. Before we dive into our episode, I have two resources that I want to highlight for you guys. First, we've put together a free guide for you called “The 7-Day Reset: Cultivating a Habit of Gratitude Through Prayer” that you can download in our show notes for free. Second, you can dig deeper into the mystery of miracles with our new study guide called Daniel: Finding Confidence That God's Power Is at Work.

Shae:

If you've been impacted by conversations and teachings from The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast, would you be so kind to leave us a review on Apple Podcast? We'd love to know how these episodes are helping you, and so many times we often turn to your reviews and really see them as testimonials that encourage us to keep going.

Kaley:

Yes, absolutely. We love knowing that these are helpful for you. All right, guys, let's turn it over to Shae and Joel.

Shae:

Joel, we are back for another podcast episode today in our “Ask A Theologian” series. OK, you spent a lot of time reading. I'm laughing because —

Joel:

Is that a statement? Is that a question? Is that like an observation?

Shae:

It's a statement, but I was laughing because I was actually picturing your office as I was saying that, and I mean, the bookshelf that was needed to hold all of the books that you read, but through all of your academic journey and also just your own personal reading, there's a lot of things that you've read. Then obviously Scripture itself.

Do you ever just read something that just kind of blows your mind in Scripture where you're like, "I can't believe that happened" or "I can't believe God did that"?

Joel:

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Shae:

I mean, there's so many different examples in the Old Testament. We could really camp out there for a hot second of all the wild things that happened there but then also even when Jesus walked the earth. So many healings, so many miracles, so many just supernatural encounters, which are incredible and obviously a huge demonstration of God's power.

But I'm curious: Whenever you're reading those, does it ever trip you up with something that you're going through today or as you're processing something that you're really waiting on God for in your own life? Or do you ever just say in your brain even "I really wish I could have been there for that or I could see something like that or witness it"?

Joel:

Yeah, there's a funny one. I was recently reading about Balaam's donkey. That's a funny one, y'all: Balaam's donkey.

Shae:

For those of us who maybe are a little less familiar with this, can you give us a short summary?

Joel:

Yeah. Balaam's gone on this road, and there's been this warning that God's given him.

Shae:

OK.

Joel:

And the guy is like ... he's all caught up on, "What do I do? What do I not do?" He's going about to give this prophecy. And Balaam's donkey is on this road, and Balaam's donkey sees an angel of the Lord is on the road. Basically the donkey can see it, [but] Balaam can't, so Balaam's donkey is like, "If we keep going, the angel of the Lord ... he's going to smite all of us. The sword is coming on all of our heads," and the donkey refuses to go. Here's Balaam, [he] gets mad at the donkey, and he's getting ... And then in this wild scene, the donkey talks. God opens the mouth of the donkey. This is my paraphrase, but I think —

Shae:

Like in Shrek?

Joel:

Like in Shrek. Y'all, I'm telling you, every narrative is somehow connected to biblical narrative.

Shae:

It really is.

Joel:

It really is. This is just a side project of mine, but I actually do think that the animals in Eden prior to the fall could talk. But that's a whole side note. That is a whole side note. I actually think Balaam's donkey is a good example of why I think that they possibly could be anyways.

Shae:

I'm trying so hard to keep up with you right now. I really am.

Joel:

I'm just saying, but this is wild. What is Balaam ... Trust me, trust me, I will make the connect here. What is happening?

Shae:

I'm ready for this connect.

Joel:

What is happening here? I think Balaam's donkey is like, "Yo" — this is my translation. This is the Joel translation of the Old Testament here — Like, "Yo, Balaam, there's an angel of the Lord on the road, and he's about to whoop you, and instead you're whooping me. I'm trying to save your life." Right?

Shae:

Right.

Joel:

It's this amazing, but here's the connect here. There's a real supernatural world that's around us. There's something that Balaam couldn't see that somehow this animal could see. We have in our 21st century, post-enlightened movements, highly scientific, we have tried to separate the supernatural and the natural.

Shae:

And the natural, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Joel:

Here's the deal. Let me just ask you this question. Tell me, the whole Christian faith is built on this Truth that Jesus, who is God Himself, was immaculately conceived, lived a perfect life, died on a cross, defeated death through death itself, rose on the third day, ascended to the right hand of the Father. Name one thing about that, that is not supernatural.

Shae:

Right.

Joel:

That is not cosmic in nature.

Shae:

Yeah, it's wild.

Joel:

It's wild. Right?

Shae:

Mm-hmm.

Joel:

I just think that's one of the things that I'm just like, "Man, OK, Balaam's donkey teaches us a lot."

Shae:

It does.

Joel:

It actually teaches us a lot.

Shae:

There’re so many examples in Scripture I think that are just hard to wrap your head around, even just from a literature standpoint. But then as you're trying to make connections within your faith, that can be difficult to wrap your head around too. Then also, too, I even think about when we're talking about this kind of element of miracles or supernatural, whatever you want to call it, have you ever had a friend or a family member that had a scary medical event and all of the sudden they're healed or they're OK or they made it through or whatever you want to call it. Doctors will often say, "There's no explanation for this."

Joel:

There's no ... They'll even say there's no human explanation for this. There's no scientific explanation.
Shae: This was a miracle. We do see glimpses of the supernatural coming through, or can we say that is God intervening in those moments? Is it safe to say that?

Joel:

Yeah, I mean ... so that brings us to the real big question here, and the question is on "When we talk about miracles, what are we saying? How do we make sense of Old Testament miracles, New Testament miracles?"

Shae:

Yeah.

Joel:

Is it possible and plausible that miracles are still taking place today?

Shae:

Yeah. Can we hope for miracles today?

Joel:

Yeah.

Shae:

Yeah.

Joel:

You know, Shae, one of the things about me ... we work very closely together and you've heard me say this before, I really don't like theological dishonesty.

Shae:

Which we are all grateful for.

Joel:

Yes, I'm not a fan of theological dishonesty. What is theological dishonesty? Theological dishonesty is the presentation of a theological view and then strong-manning that view and then being like, "Oh, that's the only view." I'm like, "Well, that's not the only view. Let's just be honest. Let's be charitable. Let's be open to a possibility." This is why I think humility is so incredibly important in how we do theological study.

In this conversation, I really do want to start with just some theological charity and awareness of saying, "Listen, there are different views on this." I'm going to summarize two of the different views I'm going to try to give, where they're coming from a scriptural standpoint, and I'm going to then land where I've personally after many, many years and seasons of study and changing my mind ... I've gone through it, and this is where I am today.

Shae:

This would be where scholars would differ on what is —

Joel:

Yes.

Shae:

OK, got it. OK.

Joel:

This is where scholars [and] theologians would say, "Oh, this is our view of the super of miracles."

Shae:

These are the camps of thought that we're in.

Joel:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shae:

OK.

Joel:

The first camp of thought and this camp of thought is called the cessationist view. Well, hold on, let me start here. Let me start with what the two camps are: the cessationist view and the continuationist view. The Cessationist View would view that the miracles ceased after the first-century church. After the apostles basically die, with the apostles, so do the miraculous.

Then the continuationist view would say, "Well, no. Miracles still continue." Then the continuationist view gets nuanced in different ways, and they would get ... Let me start on what both camps are going to agree on. Both camps are going to agree on the death, burial, resurrection, [and] ascension of Christ. We should ... I care about theological triage. I care about keeping primary things primary, secondary things secondary and tertiary things tertiary. This conversation is secondary or tertiary. This can maybe be great conversation to think through, but I want you guys to hear my heart, like this ought not cause division in the family of God.

Shae:

It's not a make it or break it [inaudible].

Joel:

It's not a make it or break thing.

Shae:

Or it shouldn't be a make it or break [inaudible].

Joel:

It really shouldn't. I think one of the mis-tragedies that happens is when we take secondary and tertiary issues of theological nature and we elevate them to primary issues, and it's causing so much division and disunity. I want to just be really clear and really just emphatic in that what we're going to describe here are secondary, and some camps are going to be in tertiary. These are not things that are going to make or break our Christian faith. I think that's really important.

Shae:

There’re believers everywhere that have different views on this, and that's OK.

Joel:

Absolutely.

Shae:

Yeah.

Joel:

That is OK.

Shae:

Right.

Joel:

Now, my goal and our goal in this is to give you a lot to think about, to point you to where the Scriptures are. Because I have done the study and we've gone kind of through this, I do want you to know where I've landed in this and also know that I hold this open-handedly. I could be wrong. I think I say that a lot. I could be wrong, and yet I think I'm convinced of where I am today.

The cessationist view would hold that miracles are for the first century with the apostles of Jesus. One of the primary verses that they would turn to is a verse like 1 Corinthians 13:8-13. Let me read it for you. It says this: that "Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will come to an end. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put aside childish things. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, as I am fully known. Now these three remain: faith, hope, and love—but the greatest of these is love" (1 Corinthians 13:8-13, CSB).

The cessationist position is going to say, "It seems pretty clear here that the miracles [and] the charismatic types of gifts are going to come to an end, that they're going to cease." In fact, both ... the continuationist view is going to believe the same thing. The big question is when. When is it going to come to an end? The cessationist view, the view that says miracles ended after the first century, what they do is they're building their theological position around the phrase, "When the perfect comes."

This is the key to this whole thing is, "What is the perfect?" This position ... I've got very great friends who are scholars that hold this view, and they would say to me, "Joel, the perfect is the completion of the Canon." That's one view, or the perfect is spiritual maturity, that when the church grows out of its infancy in the first century to being spiritually mature, that's when these charismatic gifts are no longer necessary. Those are interesting, valid points that can be argued textually and scripturally.

I am not convinced of that argument, and let me just give a couple of reasons of why I'm not. The cessationist view looks at two Greek verbs, katargeō, which means come to an end, and pauō, which means to cease. These two verbs are ... The cessationist view is going to be like, "Oh, see, clearly that is emphatic." It is saying that this thing is going to be done; two different verbs to talk about the ceasing of something is making an argument to say that this should not happen anymore.

Now, I follow a New Testament scholar Tom Schreiner who makes the observation in a lot of Greek literature, two words, two different verbs, can be used. It's not about emphatic disclosure, but it's about stylistic difference. Right? I actually think that probably makes more sense, but here's the other kind of question that we want to ask: What is the context of the rest of these verses?

Look at in 1 Corinthians 13:10; it says, "When the partial comes to an end," and then 1 Corinthians 13:12, Paul says, "We know in part, but then we're going to know fully." Then this is the biggest one for me, because I'm an Old Testament guy, so I'm constantly doing Old Testament, New Testament. The phrase “face to face” is actually an Old Testament echo, where God is appearing face to face or in relationship with humanity. The continuationist view, and I'm going to give my ... what do you call it? I'm going to give my card here.

Shae:

Your spiel. Yeah.

Joel:

Yeah. I'm going to let y'all know where I land. The continuationist's view goes, "Oh, well, when the perfect comes, it's actually talking about the second coming of Jesus," which to me makes sense, because it's like, "Oh, when Jesus comes and now we are in the new heavens and the new earth, there's no more need for the charismatic gifts, right?” Because we've got Jesus, and we're in the new heavens of the new earth, and now sin hasn't marked and marred the world. It's like, "Oh." For me, that's kind of where I've landed, personally. I've landed with the cessationist view, and here are a couple of verses that talk about that.

Shae:

You landed with the ... Yeah.

Joel:

I'm sorry, the continuationist view. Thanks.

Shae:

I was like, "That was your punchline," and I know that's not what you meant to say.

Joel:

Yes, thank you.

Shae:

You're welcome.

Joel:

A lot of work we just did here.

Shae:

Yes.

Joel:

John 14:12 says, "Truly I tell you, the one who believes in me will also do the works that I do," and this is Jesus talking, "And he will do even greater works than these, because I am going to the Father" (CSB). Now, I want to be honest and charitable for the cessationist view. Their view is going to be like, "Well, what are things that are even greater?" The cessationist view says, "Oh, it's the salvation. It's the proclaiming of the gospel, where now because of the church being mobilized, it's at much greater lengths than Jesus could have done individually by Himself," right?

I'm like, "OK, that's interesting." But I think with these other verses, it actually points to the charismatic, the way that the gospel is invading the earth and the way that God shows His power. Look at Mark 16:17-18, "And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they [are going to] drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they [are going to] pick up snakes; if they should drink anything deadly, it [is not going to] harm them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will get well" (CSB). These are all kind of charismatic types of things, kind of supernatural things.

Then Hebrews 2:3-4, I think is one of the most important ones: "How will we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? This salvation had its beginning when it was spoken of by the Lord, and it was confirmed to us by those who heard him. At the same time, God also testified by signs and wonders, various miracles, and distributions of gifts from the Holy Spirit according to his will" (CSB). So all those verses to me say, "OK, I do believe that God still works through miracles." Now I have a nuanced-continuationist view.

Shae:

OK.

Joel:

This is my nuanced view. I don't think that the gift of healing is the gift of healing like it was in the first-century church.

Shae:

Right.

Joel:

Where it seems like Paul could just literally, just be like, "I'm going to pray and then lay hands and the person is healed." Right?

Shae:

Mm-hmm.

Joel:

Instead, I think what we have now, and this is actually a little bit closer to some cessationists, is that the Holy Spirit is the agent of healing, is the agent of equipping, is the One who determines who gets well and who doesn't get well on this side of eternity. In that, the Holy Spirit determines in and whom and through that the Spirit is going to work. Do we have the gift of healing? I would say probably no, but can God still heal through us through our obedience and prayer? It's like, "Yeah, if He so determines to do that."

Again, the goal here, and actually there's a great quote I want to share at the very end of this. It's by Craig Keener. He says that, "In the theology of the gospels, signs or these types of miracles are foretastes of the kingdom, not its fullness."

Shae:

Mm-hmm.

Joel:

What does that mean? That these things are supposed to draw us into longing for and to see and witness the goodness of the new heavens and the new earth. They are not in and of themselves the goal. They're just evidence of the King who is giving these gifts in order to draw us back to Him.

Shae:

OK, so as we're processing this, I'm just thinking about ... as we're talking about this question, "Do miracles still happen, or does God still perform miracles today?" I feel like that's such a heavy question when you are walking through something heavy personally, that's the breaking-point moment where you're needing to see a miracle.

I know so many people debate about the supernatural and all of that stuff, but when you're at your breaking-point moment and you're in desperate need of a miracle, whether that's a prayer request that you've been waiting to see breakthrough in for so long, to see God move in that would be a miracle, or you're struggling in your marriage and to see God move in that would deem a miracle. Can you speak to that person? And as you're talking about just how the Holy Spirit works in our lives and even just the mystery of God, there is an element of mystery here.

Joel:

Yeah.

Shae:

Maybe something bigger than an element, but what would you say to that person who feels like they're needing a personal miracle today?

Joel:

Yeah, I mean, I would just say that the things that you're longing for and the things that we want are not bad things. They're embedded into our heart, because we know that there's something better that we're longing for the King and His Kingdom to come in His fullness. Sometimes I think what we need to do is to recall a theology of remembrance, where we look back and we go, "OK, all the things that we long for are on their way. I think it was Charles Spurgeon who said that God's never known to be late, He's never had a delay, He's always on time when He shows up, [and] that is the right timing. The cross was the definitive moment of Christ's victory, that it was won. We live in a fractured world broken by sin, and those things are unavoidable.

In light of that, I think we have this great gift in knowing that God invites us to pray and to have faith and to believe that He's fully capable of bringing healing even in the way that we want that healing to look like, whether it's a health situation or a relational dynamic or whatever that might look like. He wants us desperately to be reminded of the fact that He is still the King who sits on the throne and we are the citizens. In that, if He chooses to withhold healing or to delay in His time, that those things aren't evidence of His neglect or His cruelty. It is evidence that He's seeing something that we in our finite ways cannot see. He is protecting us from something that we cannot even imagine. Those two things can live in tension, but just because they’re in tension, [it] doesn't mean that they're not truth.

I think we have to hold on to that, and we pray with faith and with confidence, and we grieve, but we grieve as those who have hope. I've got a friend who just yesterday posted that his dad had died unexpectedly. The doctor had given him an extra over a year to live with this type of cancer that he had, and on Good Friday unexpectedly got super sick and then the doctor's like, "His body's shutting down." How do you live with that? It's like, you thought you had a year; now you only have three days.

Shae:

Yeah, it's just that sobering reality of we know that we're not going to be here forever. We know we're headed toward heaven, but then it's just a sobering moment where you remember in more color than you do just in a normal, ordinary day.

Joel:

Yeah. Yeah. I think, and we did. I prayed. I prayed for healing. I prayed, "OK, Lord, you're capable. You can heal in the next two days. You can extend his life if you so desire. I think the optive words are, "If you so desire, and then trusting, OK, God, You had something else in plan here that we can't see." But we do need to believe that it is a protection for us because when we look at the past faithfulness of God, He has consistently been faithful in all these other areas of our life and throughout the course of human history. Why would He now deviate from that today in this moment of hardship?

Shae:

What I hear you saying is it's totally OK for us to still pray for miracles.

Joel:

Yeah.

Shae:

For us to cry out to God and ask for healing and answers and divine intervention and all of those things.

Joel:

Yeah.

Shae:

It's totally OK to cry out to God and ask for His intervention. I mean, just even the fact that God would work in and throughout our lives is like a miracle on itself. I would challenge us today to maybe even think about what are we defining as a miracle? Because if we're constantly only looking for the really big things, the big acts of God, and we're only putting those in this bucket of miracle, then we will skip over the ways that He is absolutely, miraculously moving in our lives today. Yeah.

Joel:

We have an obsession with the charismatic miraculous, and to your point, there are acts of miracles that are happening consistently that are mundane and average, but they're still miracles.

Shae:

The breath in my lungs right now.

Joel:

Yeah. It's a miracle.

Shae:

The voice coming out of my mouth right now. Yeah, just —

Joel:

That heart can come alive, can hear the gospel and believe, put their faith in Jesus. That is a miracle.

Shae:

Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joel:

Yeah.

Shae:

One thing that I've been doing over the last couple of weeks is a gratitude practice of every single day starting my day with five things that I'm grateful for. It's just started me in such a position and a perspective of looking for the things of God in ways that may not be obvious. Sometimes it's literally ... I mean, I traveled a bunch last month, so recently I wrote drinking coffee at home in my own mug. That is something I'm grateful for today, or to be able to show up at work today and use my gifts.

Joel:

Yeah.

Shae:

Or to wake up in the morning and read my Bible with my spouse. All of these things that I'm grateful for. When I really look at it, I'm like, "Those things are miraculous." There are so many wildly sad, bad things that happen on the regular it feels like.

Joel:

Mm-hmm.

Shae:

The news is super obvious with all that's wrong in our fallen state of world. Yet when we can shift our perspective even just a little bit, I feel like God will show us the everyday miraculous ways that He is moving. I pray that we still go after the big things.

Joel:

Yeah.

Shae:

That we pray for the big things, but that we wouldn't let those things, depending on how they go, change how we view God and His goodness and His character toward us.

Joel:

Yeah. Absolutely.

Shae:

Because that would be a shame.

Joel:

Absolutely. Absolutely. I think some people are like, "Wait a minute; I kind of want to learn more. I feel like I've just been exposed to all this different stuff." I want to give two resources —

Shae:

OK.

Joel:

— that are going to help you theologically: one from a camp that I'm not in but I think it's the best scholarship on it, by a New Testament scholar that I adore — actually quoted him. I've quoted him in here, and the book is small; it's called Spiritual Gifts, and it's by Dr. Tom Schreiner; his son Patrick was my doctoral adviser. He's brilliant. I would actually argue that Tom's a little bit more continuationist than he says, and he even says it in the book, but the book is called Spiritual Gifts, and it's literally a case for cessationism. I think Tom does an excellent job of really laying it out.

Then the other book much more ... it's like heavier, bigger, academic, but it's by Craig Keener. It's a two-volume book on miracles. Keener actually goes through to your point and says, "What is a miracle? What was it in the ancient world? What is it today?" and goes through verifiable scientific evidence for those moments where doctors are like, "There is no other explanation for this." He gives a case for the place for biblical miracles today. That was incredibly helpful for me.

Shae:

Would you say there's also a camp of people who say, "I don't know what I think."

Joel:

Sure.

Shae:

Yeah?

Joel:

Sure.

Shae:

They're like, "I don't know if I want to commit to this."

Joel:

Yeah, yeah.

Shae:

Yeah. I'm like in the research phase; I'm listening, but I don't know if I feel one way or another.

Joel:

Absolutely. Absolutely. Remember, regardless of where you land, we're still part of God's family.

Shae:

Totally. I've heard Lysa say before, "We're not going to tell you what to think. We're going to give you a lot to think about."

Joel:

A lot to think about.

Shae:

I hope that today's episode has given you, wherever you're listening, a lot to think about. Just know that Joel and I are cheering for you, and we'll see you next time.

Kaley:

Shae, what a helpful episode. I'm just thinking about our friends listening who are quite literally hoping for a miracle and maybe [with] some sense of desperation. They see evidence of God's power at work in His Word, but there's something in their lives today that they really just are desperate to see movement on.

I think one of the greatest gifts that the collective church can give to the world today is actually being a voice that shares what God has done in our lives today that man cannot. I just want to be an example right now if I can and share a little bit of my story.

My husband and I were not supposed to be able to conceive children naturally with as much ease as most people are able to. If you've found yourself in that situation, you don't really know that that's going to be your story until you actually start trying to have a baby and realize like, "Oh, this is a little bit different than I thought it would be." We were really kind of hoping for a miracle and praying for that.

I've shared this a little bit on the podcast before in some episodes about my journey of infertility and loss and how incredibly hard it was to watch God do something for others but feel like it would never be my story, or why He wasn't acting as quickly as I saw Him act for others, or why I couldn't have a miracle. Part of my story is that it actually did happen one time, but then it was taken away, and I lost that baby, and it was really, really hard to kind of hope again.

But what I'm going to say now, and I know Shae you're going to talk about this in just a minute too, is that my story did end with an actual miracle. I think somebody needs to hear that today, whether it's you're going through family planning and really trying to have a baby and the journey has been really hard for you: God is still at work. Or if you're just in a situation where you're like, "This is completely out of my control, and there's nothing that I could do that will provide a man-made solution for this to happen, and the only way is for God to step in and intervene and make it happen."

I just want you to hear this story and what I've walked through as an example that God's power is at work. You know and I don't know that it doesn't look like Him shutting the mouths of [lions] or something really wild today. I don't know that stuff like that is something that happens today. I think miracles will go a lot more every day like surprises, and they're kind of woven into the small parts of people's lives.

But I think it's our job as believers not to hold those things to ourselves whenever God does something really good and powerful for us, because I think when we do that, we're robbing somebody else of the hope that God sees and God hears and He's still active and He's still working on our behalf to do what only He can do. If that brings one person hope on the other side of this podcast episode today, then I really hope it does.

Shae:

Yeah, that's so good. I just wanted to say, too, Kaley, as your co-worker and friend, it's been, not was, it is a blessing to be able to watch you walk so faithfully in different seasons through that situation of trying to grow your family. I honor you today and just honor you for sharing too.

If you're listening today, and you're listening to some of the stories that we've told or even some of the examples that Joel and I got into in the podcast and your faith is stirred, but you're still wondering, "What if God doesn't give me the miracle that I'm desperate for in this specific situation?" I would just say I totally understand that question. I also would say that I, too, have situations in my life that I'm asking that.

There's a prayer request that my family and I have continually been calling out to God for I think almost eight years, if not more than eight years at this point. I often ask that question, "Is this going to be the one that God doesn't come through in?" I don't know, but I've personally found comfort in the truth that God is never late and He must know something that I don't. While I'm waiting on that miracle, I know that I can rest in His presence that will never leave me alone.

I've also just really challenged myself to really ... I think when we think about the word “miracle,” we think of these big acts of God. There's actually a lot of everyday miracles that God is doing. I mean, even just me having breath in my lungs, to be able to speak right now, and people to hear the sound of my voice, that's a miracle.

There's so many precious gifts that God gives us that really are miracles. While I'm not going to discount that, I'm still waiting on some in my life, but I also, I think I can hold it in both hands that there's miracles I'm waiting on and there's miracles I'm experiencing at the same time. I don't want to miss that.

Kaley:

Yeah. Well, and I think, too, what you said is helpful for us as we walk in this world of already but not yet. We have the presence of God with us here, but we're not yet with Him in perfection. The hardship that we face every single day is that we're living in a broken world, and things aren't going to be fully right until we get to heaven and we see Jesus face to face, and in a moment, everything is restored. Our job is to walk faithfully and seek God every single day while we're here for as long as we have breath in our lungs and trust that if He's withholding, there's a reason.

It's really, really hard whenever we don't have the context, and me and Shae talked about this before we started recording. We're sorry we don't have a better answer or something that is more healing to say in this, but I don't think anybody does. No one does — only God [does].

Shae:

Yeah. We're walking this with you, guys.

Kaley:

Yeah. Only God can meet you where you are and provide you with the comfort and the hope that you need specifically in your situation that looks different for everybody. If that's you, we see you and we love you. I just want to mention our prayer wall on the Proverbs 31 Ministries website. If you scroll down to the bottom and say prayer ... I think it says prayer request. You can click it and tell us something that we can be praying for you about. Our team looks at that every single day and would love to know how we can come alongside you.

Also, if you're looking for some practical resources on just miracles and learning more about that, one thing that I'm going to mention, which is kind of odd I think in relation to miracles, is the free resource I mentioned at the top is called “The 7-Day Reset: Cultivating a Habit of Gratitude Through Prayer.” It's a free guide that will help you pay attention to what you're asking God for through the lens of gratitude first.

I think whenever we're looking for God at work, we're going to miss it if we're not prayerfully mindful in asking Him, Show me how You're moving today. This is a resource that you can grab for free with just your email that will help you do that. It's linked in our show notes, and you can dive deeper into what the book of Daniel shows us about miracles by purchasing our First 5 study guide called Daniel: Finding Confidence That God's Power Is at Work.

Shae:

That's all for today, friends. Wherever you are, I hope you know that while there's pieces of our story that we may not know how they're going to end, that God is good, and we are here for you in the in between as you're waiting on your miracles at Proverbs 31 Ministries. We believe when you know the Truth and live the Truth, it changes everything.