The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast

Kaley Olson:
Well, hello, friends, and thanks for tuning in to the Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast, where we share biblical Truth for any girl in any season. I'm your host, Kaley Olson, and I'm here with my co-host and friend, my Proverbs friend and author and social media expert, Ashley Jackson.

Ashley Jackson:
You're so kind.

Kaley Olson:
You're welcome.

Ashley Jackson:
Thank you for having me today as a co-host, Kaley. And before we jump into Elizabeth’s teaching, I have to tell our listeners about a new study guide that's available from Proverbs 31 Ministries. It's called Good News: How the Four Gospels Point Us to One Person We Can Trust. And my goodness, how much do we need to look to the only One we can trust these days when people, circumstances we face in this world, they make us doubt. So, friends, please do yourself a favor, and grab the study guide. And let it be a resource that helps you study the most significant moments in Jesus's life to bring hope and an internal perspective for whatever you're walking through.

Kaley Olson:
I mean, it's such a good study guide. You can grab it in the ... What do we have? Show notes ... that's what we call them. We call them show notes. You can grab the link in our show notes below.

But you know, Ash, I'm excited for our listeners to hear the conversation we just recorded with our new friend, Elizabeth Thompson, who's a writer for our Encouragement for Today Devotions. We just recorded that. And then you, me, and Jana, our podcast producer, who's sitting over here, who refused to come on and share her thoughts about the podcast episode, which was really good ... but I will just say for all three of us who got to partake in hearing Elizabeth teaching, it was so helpful.

Ashley Jackson:
So helpful, yeah.

Kaley Olson:
She talks about friendships that feel like they're fizzling out, friendship breakups, and maybe how to heal from them. But what I appreciated most was her proactive approach in conflict that doesn't have to feel like jarring conflict but just a conversation. It was really, really helpful. You guys are going to love it. So let's go hear from Elizabeth.

Ashley Jackson:
Well, we are so excited to welcome our new friend to the show, Elizabeth Laing Thompson.

Kaley Olson:
Hey, Elizabeth.

Elizabeth Thompson:
Hey, thank you so much for having me. I've been so looking forward to our conversation.

Kaley Olson:
Me too. Well, for our audience, this is a new friend, so let me tell you a little bit about her. Elizabeth is a wife and a mom and a speaker and a published author. Wow. And a writer who regularly contributes to her website blog at lizzylife.com.

But, Elizabeth, when I was looking at your website, you described your life in a way that was very relatable to me and my life and I feel like a lot of our listeners' life. For example, you talk about cleaning up messes all the time and maybe dog excrement that happens in your house when you're not looking. So can you tell us what is the most relatable thing you've experienced recently that you'd be willing to share with our audience?

Elizabeth Thompson:
OK, well, this one kind of pains me to share. I do have the blessing of four children; I adore them all. Three are actually now in high school, which is insane, and my youngest is still in elementary school, but she's 10 and hitting that new, almost kind of a preteen. I tell myself she's not a preteen yet, but she kind of is. But her name is Sawyer Kate. And recently I dropped her off at summer camp, at church camp, and we were late. So I was there with her, helping her get settled, and just, you're like ... I was doing the hovering mom thing and making sure she has friends and does she know all her cabin mates and dah, dah, dah. And I'm hovering, and this child is extremely confident and has zero problems socially, but I'm being the hovering mom.

And so she's introducing herself around, and this little girl goes, "OK, well, what's your name?" And my daughter Sawyer says, "Sawyer," and I could tell ... It's not the most common name and certainly not the most common name for girls, and so I could tell this other girl was like, "Wait, what?" And so I go, "Oh, it's like Sawyer, you know that book Tom Sawyer?" And my daughter turns to me and gives me this look. And she just goes, "Mom!" And I could tell that I had just mortified her, and then I was suddenly mortified. I'm kind of used to her wanting me around and feeling like a reasonably relatable, maybe not a cool mom, but a relatable mom. And I was like, "Oh, no."

Kaley Olson:
Oh, no.

Elizabeth Thompson:
I just ruined her first day at camp. I embarrassed my child. And it was just like one of those mom smackdown moments, where you're like, "Ah, I guess I'm not the cool mom anymore."

Kaley Olson:
That's funny.

Elizabeth Thompson:
"My girl is growing up."

Kaley Olson:
That's funny.

Elizabeth Thompson:
Yeah, it was kind of painful.

Kaley Olson:
You're boosting her confidence with that though. You're testing her. That was a test; that's what it was.

Elizabeth Thompson:
That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ashley Jackson:
That's super relatable to me because we were talking about that this morning: how you just get to a certain age where you stop pronouncing words correctly and your children have to correct you.

Kaley Olson:
I think I've reached that, but my son is not yet old enough to correct me.

Ashley Jackson:
It is so funny when they're like, "That's not how you say it, Mom." And you're like, "Whatever."

Elizabeth Thompson:
But when they start correcting you and you're just like, "Oh no, I'm not supermom anymore."

Ashley Jackson:
So relatable. So relatable. And speaking of relatable things, I know that today's topic is exactly that, so we're excited to hear from you. It's about friendship breakups, which no one wants to experience but sadly and probably normally we all do at some point. I actually think our generation is pretty ill-equipped to talk about this, especially in the Christian world. So I'm excited to hear how you're going to unpack friendship breakups with us today.

Elizabeth Thompson:
Well, I'm really excited to talk about this. I mean, I say excited, [but] I think maybe the right word is “honored” because it is a difficult topic. And yes, as I have brought this up with different women and said, "My next book is ... Actually it's about friendship breakups," everyone has really looked at me with a sad and knowing look in their eye and just said, "You know, I've actually been through that, and I need that."

But I like to say, if you've been through the seventh grade, then you have probably experienced a friendship loss on some level at some point in your life. And it's a unique kind of pain because, especially in a Christian circle, it's one of those things that's not supposed to happen, and yet it does. And so when it does, I think we feel very confused, like, "Wait, I thought we both loved Jesus. I thought we both were committed to working out conflict in good ways. How could this happen? What went wrong?"

I think we feel a deep sense of insecurity. We can feel, of course, a lot of regret. For me, when I have walked through this, I feel a lot of guilt, like, "What did I do wrong?" I feel a sense of shame, like, "I'm a failure in this friendship. Am I a failure in all of my friendships, and maybe I just don't know it." There's such a miserable blend of feelings that we experience when we go through this.

And I say the good news in this, even though it wasn't good news for Him, the good news is, even Jesus can relate to this. We don't often think about it this way, but Jesus Himself experienced the loss of friendships. In fact, He experienced the loss of multiple friendships at the worst time in His life, the time in His life when He needed His friends more than ever. He was hurting, He was lonely, He was heading to suffer on the cross, [and] everybody let Him down. And so it wasn't good news for Him, but the good news for us is we can learn from what Jesus went through. He can comfort us in our emotions as we try to process and grieve and heal.

And so we're going to look at some scriptures today that I think will really help to comfort our hearts as we consider our experiences in friendship. And I wanted to start over in Matthew 26. This is the night when Jesus knows He is about to be betrayed. He's about to be arrested, tortured, put through a false sham of a trial, and eventually killed. And He is incredibly overwhelmed, He's sad, [and] He is dreading what is to come. He's questioning like, "Am I ready for this? Can I do this?" He's needing to surrender His will to God's all over again.

And in Matthew 26:38, Jesus said to Peter, James and John, who were His three closest friends among the 12 disciples ... He said, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me" (NIV). And I just love the vulnerability in that request. That Jesus, like us, He didn't want to suffer alone. He didn't want to pray and hurt alone. He just wanted people to sit and keep watch and keep vigil with Him in His pain.

And so Peter, James and John go with Him. Jesus prays. And in verse 40 we see that Jesus returned to His disciples after pouring out His heart to God, and He found them sleeping. And He says, "Couldn't you men keep watch with me for one hour?" (Matthew 26:40, NIV). And you can just hear the hurt and the disappointment in Jesus's words when His friends let Him down. He needed them, and they weren't there for Him. And they fall asleep not only this one time but two more times throughout the night. They just couldn't be there for Him, and Jesus was alone in His time of greatest suffering.

And then of course we know Judas, at the end of this night, when Jesus has ... He's wrestled through His emotions. He's surrendered His will to God. He says, "Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!" (Matthew 26:46, NIV). And then Judas, again, one of the 12, one of these 12 men that Jesus had poured His life out into for the last three years, comes to Him and betrays Him with a kiss. And it is astounding what Jesus says to Judas. He says, "Do what you came for, friend" (Matthew 26:50, NIV). And I think there was a lot going on in Jesus's choice of that word "friend." It's a reminder to Judas, "Hey, I thought we were friends. You are betraying me, and I was your friend."

I also think it's an olive branch. It's saying, "Listen, my friendship is not going anywhere. There is a path back, if you want to take it." Of course, Judas didn't take it. We know that he gave up and he committed suicide, but Jesus would have, I believe, forgiven him and welcomed him back. And then shortly after that, Jesus is arrested, and it says, "All the disciples deserted him and fled" (Matthew 26:56, NIV). And now all 12, these guys who just hours before at the Last Supper had said, "Jesus, we will go with you to arrest and to death. We're with you until the end," they all collapse and fail. And so Jesus experienced intense loss and betrayal at the hands of His friends, and so He understands how challenging it is when we go through it.

My story ... I have multiple stories. Friendship is so important to me. I adore my friends. I have a number of lifelong friends who have been with me through all kinds of ups and downs and chaos, and infertility, and looking for a husband, and is he ever going to fall in love with me. And then through early years of marriage and then all the different steps of motherhood. And yet, in spite of the fact that I adore my friends, I've made missteps in friendships, and at different points along the way, I have lost some friendships.

I think some of the most common ways is just that long-term drift and fade that we all experience. Some friendships, they just don't quite last the test of time. Maybe you both move into different stages of life. One moves a little bit faster than the other, and you're not sure how to bridge that transition together. Maybe one of you moves away. I have moved a lot. And sometimes you just look up and you're like, "Wow, wait, it's been six months, a year, and we haven't talked. Where'd she go? Where'd I go? What happened to us? Are we still friends?" And so I've certainly experienced drifted friendships.

I have been ghosted before, and that is, oh my goodness, one of the most miserable ways to lose a friendship because you're like, "Wait, is it me? Is it you? Did something happen? I have no idea. What is going on here? Please talk to me." And you're shouting into a void. And those are the worst. I've experienced that at times. I had one, years ago, one situation that was particularly painful, where it was the day before my wedding, and I had called a friend. I had promised to give her some phone numbers to help her connect with some friends of mine in her new city where she was moving. I was trying to help her get a leg up on friendships there.

And I had kept forgetting and forgetting and forgetting. And finally, the morning of my rehearsal dinner, I called her, and I was like, "OK, I have my act together. Before I switch into total wedding mode for the next week and honeymoon, I've got these phone numbers." And there was this just awful silence on the other end of the line. And she was just like, "You know, Elizabeth, you should have gotten me these numbers weeks ago. You kept promising; you let me down. And in fact, I just feel like this is a pattern in this friendship. You've been really selfish and distracted while you've been planning your wedding and starting your new job. And I'm just done. I'm done with this friendship."

And oh my goodness, the heat that flooded ... I felt like my ears were on fire and falling off my head. I just felt horrified and humiliated and so shamed and sorry. And I was just like, "I'm so sorry. You're right. I know that I have been lost in my own world. I want to make this right with you. Obviously, I can't today; I have wedding stuff happening, but please can we get together?" And unfortunately, I reached out to her when I got back from my honeymoon; I even called her boyfriend. I was like, "Please help me get in touch with her. I know I can change, and I want to apologize. She deserves an apology from me." But she wouldn't talk to me. And there was really nothing I could do, and I had to let it go.

And that was, I think, my most dramatic friendship loss. And I still feel a sense of guilt and shame when I think about it. But there is comfort and help in the Scripture for all those different kinds of losses and struggles and strains in friendship. One of the passages that I have found the most helpful for my heart is in Matthew 5. There was a different situation years ago where some people that I knew were really hurting some friends of mine. There was just an awful situation with gossip, and it was just a very, very ugly situation. And I saw how my friends were hurting.

And it was the first time in my life that I remember feeling this deep pull and temptation to feel hatred and an horrible, ugly bitterness toward these people who were acting this way. And these were Christians. They were just not acting, from my perspective, in a very Christ-like way. And I was like, "Whoa, what is happening in my heart? I do not like what I'm feeling, but I have no idea how to change this." And so I sat down in prayer and pulled out my Bible and was like, God, I need help. I'm really tempted to hate and to be bitter toward these people.

And I ended up in Matthew 5:43-45, where Jesus says, "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven" (NIV). And I remember just sitting there with that verse, and I'd read it a million times. Like in Sunday school they're like, "Love your enemies, and pray for your enemies." And I think in my mind I had always thought of that as just a righteous to-do. As part of your prayers, just add in a little token prayer for people who are hard for you to get along with; pray for your enemies.

And I just thought of it as a checklist thing. But as I sat there that day, I remember thinking, OK, what if there's more to this? What if Jesus is telling us this because there's something that praying for a person with whom we're having conflict will do to our hearts and in our hearts? And I mean, I had nothing to lose. I really wanted my heart to not become bitter, so I just committed to God that day that I was going to pray for those people daily. And let me tell you, my first few prayers, I was forcing them out through gritted, ground teeth. And they were these really awkward, stilted prayers because I was like, "I don't really know ... I have no plan, I'm just praying for these people. Um, God bless them, do good things in their life." And it was sort of this awkward, very nonspecific prayer.

But the longer I prayed for these people, my prayers started changing, and they started becoming more detailed. Like, Lord, I wonder if they're hurting. I wonder if the reason they're acting that way is there's more to this story than I know, there's more happening here than I can see. And so I pray that You will help them, that You will heal them from whatever is driving this behavior. I pray that You will open their heart to apologize if they need to or to hear an apology if that's what is needed. I pray that You will soften their hearts so that they will engage in processes that would lead toward resolution, reconciliation. And my prayers got more and more specific. And I don't know what happened in those people's hearts because of my prayers, but I do know what happened in mine, and that is that God changed and protected and healed my heart through those prayers.

And some of the things that I learned through that: When we pray for a friend with whom we are in conflict, the first thing it does is it shields our hearts from bitterness. It gives us a verbal outlet for our pain, like a way to begin releasing resentment to God. It prevents our feelings of righteous anger and real pain, real hurt, from twisting into damaging bitterness. It protects our hearts from bitterness. The second thing that happened to me and that happens to us when we pray for a friend with whom we're having conflict is prayer humbles us. It reminds us that even when we've been hurt, we are imperfect and we need grace too. It might even help us, as it did for me that day, it helps us to consider the conflict from the other person's perspective.

Prayer also helps us to resist the temptation to seek revenge. I think when we bring these things to God, we are reminded that God loves justice, and we can trust Him to defend and protect the innocent. And it really puts that in God's hands. Instead of us feeling like, "Well, nobody else is doing anything about this. It's up to me. I've got a seek revenge. I've got to make this right." We trust that, "You know what, I'm bringing this to God, and He's the one who can do something about this. He's going to choose what needs to take place here."

And then the other thing that prayer does for us is it gives us peace as we wait for resolution. Our prayers keep God's special attention on our conflict. We keep bringing it up to Him, and the more we talk about it with Him, the more we're able to release it to Him. We are reminded every time we pray that God is working, even when we can't see or understand all that He is doing. So I just want to encourage our listeners today, if you are engaged in a conflict or just in a difficult, strained relationship with a friendship or that friendship is completely broken, start praying for that person and about the relationship. Pray every day, and watch what God does in your heart. But you may be surprised how much He moves in this situation, and you start to see Him at work.

The other thing that I think we can really learn from Jesus about our broken friendships is there is this underused bit of teaching that Jesus gives in Matthew 18, where He's talking with Peter about forgiveness. And Peter's coming to Him ... it's that famous passage where he's like, "Hey, Lord, how many times should I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" And Peter's kind of like ... it seems like he's waiting for Jesus to be like, "Wow, Peter, that is so loving. Great job. You are so forgiving. What a big number you are willing to forgive." And Jesus is like, "Ah, actually not just seven times but 70 times seven" (Matthew 18:21-22). In other words, like forgive as many times as it takes. Like, "You need to offer forgiveness the complete number of times. Seven is that number of completion and perfection, and I want you to forgive until forgiveness is done."

And then Jesus really walks Peter and the other disciples through this step-by-step process that I think really can help us when we're engaged in conflict. So in Matthew 18:15, Jesus says, "If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over" (NIV). OK, so we need to stop right there because how many conflicts would be prevented from escalating and exploding if we would just follow this one step that Jesus advised. Look, if you're feeling funky in a friendship, which we all have times in every friendship where something's a little off, if we would just go directly to that person and say, "Hey, can we talk? There's something between us; we need to clear the air." How many things could get resolved before they turn into a friendship-breaking event or before they escalate into deep wounds and true resentment.

For me, the first thing I want to do when I feel weird or off or confused in a friendship is I want to go be comforted and reassured and validated from someone else. I don't want to go to that person because conflict is hard and intimidating. I want to go talk to someone else and be like, "And I'm right here? Can you reassure me that I'm not crazy?" But that can so quickly devolve into gossip, and it can make things a whole lot worse. If we would only follow Jesus's advice here and go first directly to the person, so many conflicts would stay very small and not become larger.

And then Jesus goes on to Step 2 in verse 16. He says, "But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses’" (Matthew 18:16, NIV). I think if we have attempted to resolve and reconcile and it's just ... we're hitting an impasse, if we can find a mutual friend who we both respect, someone we both feel close to, who can help us, like, "Hey, can you just sit and help us work this out, hear us out, [and] help us understand each other better?" That can be a really healing thing. It can be tricky. You've got to have the right person and someone you both respect and admire and trust. But that is an incredibly healing opportunity if you both have someone who you can agree to sit down with.

We won't get into Step 3 that gets into issues of like, hey, if this needs to go to a church level; that's sort of a different conversation. But I so appreciate Jesus' advice there. And there's this really cool moment in the book of John, where we get to see Jesus implement His own advice in His friendship with Peter. As we all know, Peter denied Jesus three times the night He was arrested and betrayed and killed, and reconciliation needed to take place between them. So after Jesus rose from the dead, He gave Peter the chance to recant those denials. For every time Peter had denied Jesus, Jesus came to Peter and said, "Do you love me more than these?" (John 21:15, NIV).

In John 21:15, "Jesus said to Simon Peter, 'Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?' 'Yes, Lord,' [Peter] said, 'you know that I love you'" (NIV). And this is Jesus really acting out that verse: His own advice in Matthew 18, He's saying, "Go to the person; make it right with them." And then Jesus says it again, "Hey, do you love me?" Peter answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep" (John 21:16, NIV). The third time Jesus says, "Simon son of John, do you love me?" And then — I love that we have this line — it says, "Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, 'Do you love me?' He said, 'Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you'" (John 21:17, NIV).

And I appreciate that the Bible tells us that Peter was hurt, because Jesus was perfect. He handled this conversation with absolute righteousness. He wasn't sarcastic, He wasn't unkind, [and] He didn't avoid conflict. And yet Peter still got hurt feelings. And you know what that tells me? That these conversations are tricky. When we have a friendship that's got something in it that needs resolution, it's tricky. We're not going to handle it perfectly. It might be a little messy. Feelings might get a little more hurt before they get better. And yet, I think Jesus's example with Peter really shows us that if we push through, reconciliation sometimes can be possible. At the very least, we may be able to achieve a sense of resolution, a sense of putting the conflict behind us and moving on. Those difficult conversations, like Jesus had with Peter, can really be worthwhile.

Even Jesus, He was able to set His friendship with Peter right; they were able to move forward. It was amazing — complete reconciliation and redemption there. But even Jesus had one friendship that never quite got resolved. Judas gave up. He committed suicide before he was able to engage in that reconciliation with Jesus. And you and I, we may not be able to repair every earthly friendship that struggles. We may live with some brokenness here on earth, and yet, I want to encourage you, if that's where you are, I want to encourage you to lean into the friendship that you have with God, the friendship that will always be faithful, that will never let you down.

Psalm 139:7-10 says, "Where can I go from your Spirit [Lord]? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths [of conflict and depression and discouragement], you [God] are there. If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast" (NIV).

Our loving Father is there for us, no matter where we go, no matter how we hurt, no matter what we go through. And I just want to encourage you, if you are walking through a season of struggle in friendship or loneliness, where you just wish that your friendships were going better, you do have a friend. And I want to encourage you to reach out to God's hand, hold it tight, and let Him be that friend for you because He will never ever let you down.

Kaley Olson:
Man, Elizabeth, that was so good. I feel like it was relatable to anybody walking through ... either they're expecting that something might be fizzling out or they have just gone through a breakup or maybe they're the one who might even be initiating that. I think that you gave so many different helpful points for anybody in that, finding themselves in that, season.

But something that you said when you were talking about praying for your enemies, which it's interesting; we don't really want to call our friends our enemies or our frenemy, I guess.

Elizabeth Thompson:
Yeah. Frenemies, right.

Kaley Olson:
But you said something that was like, "Pray for someone, and assume that there's more to the story." I don't know if you said that explicitly, but that's what I got out of it. And it made me think, Man, absence doesn't really make the heart grow fonder. I completely disagree with that. I think absence makes the heart assume, and we have a choice. We can assume the best or the worst. And the tricky thing is there's you in the friendship story and there's your friend. So we've got two very different assumptions that are going on here.

And I think that these days, especially friendships in the Christian world, there's also this Bible verse that gets thrown around about laying your life down for your friend. And at this point in my life, especially right now as a new mom — well, I have a 20-month-old, so I'm not necessarily that new of a mom — but friendships have been hard for me right now where I'm on the receiving end, because I'm trying to catch up and figure out how to do this whole new rhythm. And I'm wondering if I ... Maybe you and I have somewhat of a similar story, in that your friend before the wedding came to you and you came to her, but she said, "I've been waiting for months," but she never told you. But you also never really had a conversation with her and said, "Hey, Susie Q, this is all I have to give right now."

So can I ask you a question about setting expectations in friendships? Have you done that? Is it appropriate? Is it weird? Let's talk about that.

Elizabeth Thompson:
I love this question so much. I absolutely think it is helpful to have those just clarifying conversations, because so many times ... This has happened to me, and I've seen it happen to other friends, where we just have mismatched expectations and mismatched definitions of what friendship and devotion looks like. You know we have our different love languages, and so here I am, pouring out my love in text messages. Like, "I know I don't have a lot of quality time to offer right now, but I'm sending you these encouraging texts." Meanwhile, my friend is a quality-time person, and she's like, "Put your money where your mouth is. If we don't have coffee once a week, I don't feel close."

If we could just clarify and say, "Hey, what helps you feel close? I feel like I might not be fulfilling my end of the friendship here. I am sensing a little weirdness; is there something I'm not doing? Am I making you feel insecure?" I think if we can have those clarifying conversations, oh my goodness, we prevent so much misunderstanding and assumption moving forward.

I also think one of the things I've learned by not doing at different times, so I've learned to do now, is I do think, like you said, we have certain seasons where life just kind of has us in a headlock. New motherhood is one of them. If you have a new job or —

Kaley Olson:
Starting school, kids starting school, and the craziness of fall. Yeah.

Elizabeth Thompson:
Oh my goodness, yes. You just have certain seasons where you genuinely are like, "I have no margin in my life right now. I don't like it. I don't think it's healthy or good or whatever. It's just ... it is what it is, and it's where I am right now." I think if we can just be clear with our friends and say, "Listen, can we get the elephant in the room out of the way? I am not able to be what I want to be in our friendship right now, but I will come back to you. Give me a month." And sometimes we'll just throw our friends a bone, like "Can we put something on the calendar, a FaceTime or a coffee or a walk in the park, next month after my deadline or after the kids settle down?" That's enough for our friends to know, "OK, she's not running away. She's still here, but she's being honest about what she can and can't do," instead of making promises you can't deliver.

So awesome question. The more clarity, the more expectations, I think the better things go in our friendship.

Kaley Olson:
And I appreciate too what you said about throwing your friends a bone. Let's say you're the one that's in the tough season. I love it so much when my friends reach out, and they're like, "Hey, you good?" Because it's like they know; they're not waiting on me to say it. And so I think it's like a give and a take and an exchange, where if you aren't necessarily in that busy season, you have no idea how much it means to be the one to throw your friend a bone and just check on them. But, Ashley, I want to know what you're thinking.

Ashley Jackson:
Yeah, this is so good and helpful. I think, like you said, there's so many different seasons of our life that we're walking through. And I remember being mad at a friend when we were in a college because she had gone off to college and I was at home, and so I was upset because she was busy and I wasn't. Well, then another season comes along where now I'm busy, and I start to get it a little more clearly.

And even this last season with my close friends, it really mattered to me going through the book-writing process and all this stuff, and they didn't support me as much as I wanted them to. And I was just honest, and I cried in front of them, and I said, "It hurts my feelings because this is so precious to me but you guys don't even ask about it." And instead of them being like, "Well, suck it up, Ashley," they were like, "Oh my goodness, we didn't know."

And so I think there's this level of grace in communication that is so important, like what you're teaching us. And I love that you said that Jesus was perfect and He communicated in a way that still hurt. And I think understanding that ... the other point that Kaley brought up, that there's more going on to the story than we can always see, but if we can, keep in grace and communication with each other, hopefully.

But I did have one question for you, Elizabeth, on a different turn here, and that is: If it keeps drifting away, how do we know to keep fighting for it or let it go?

Kaley Olson:
That's good.

Elizabeth Thompson:
That's such a great question. And it's one of those that I think it can be hard to figure it out. And so when I've been in situations like that where I'm like, "I don't know. Do I need to fight for this friendship? Do I need to let it go?" I spend time in prayer. I think the more we invite God into it and say, God, can You make this clear? Can You show me the right path? He will usually make it clear, and over time it'll be obvious what needs to happen.

Obviously, anytime we're in a friendship where it's just clearly ... it's doing emotional damage, it's not working, we're not bringing out the best in each other, I do think it's OK, even as Christians, to just step back and say, "I think we may not be as close as we used to. I wish you well. I love you. I have no bitterness, but we just may not be able to or need to resume the closeness that we had in the past."

But sometimes God changes both of you, and He's able in time to bring you back together. So I always like to say, keep praying about it. You just never know what God's going to do and what He has up His sleeve in your friend's heart, how He may be working on her and changing her while He's also working on you and changing you. I always like to leave room for God and grace to do their powerful work.

Ashley Jackson:
That's good.

Kaley Olson:
Yeah, that is good. And you didn't say it, but what I got from that is, you're not the Savior of this relationship — Jesus is. And He can do that work, and He's never going to give up. But sometimes, sometimes, we have to recognize that we can't be the Savior, and that's OK.

Ashley Jackson:
That's good, Kaley.

Kaley Olson:
And there's freedom in that.

So, Elizabeth, thank you so much for just the wisdom that you so graciously brought in, giving your examples today but also responding to some not so fun questions that I think people are really wondering about whenever it comes to friendships and how to navigate conflict well. So I really appreciate that. And I know, if anybody is listening to this podcast episode and wants more from Elizabeth, you guys need to grab her book; it's titled When a Friendship Falls Apart: Finding God's Path for Healing, Forgiveness, and (Maybe) Help Letting Go. You can grab it in the link in our show notes below. But, Elizabeth, how do you want our listeners to connect with you?

Elizabeth Thompson:
Oh, goodness. I really love connecting with listeners and with readers and just hearing your experience, your story. It's really meaningful to me having reader friends and listener friends. I am active on Instagram: @elizabethlaingthompson. I'm very active on my website: lizzylife.com. You can find me on Facebook. All the usual suspects. And I just really value every message that I receive, hearing different people's stories. So I would definitely look forward to connecting with you.

Kaley Olson:
For sure. We'll link those in the show notes.

Ashley Jackson:
Well, thank you so much. This was so good. And we wanted to remind our listeners to not forget to purchase the study guide, Good News: How the Four Gospels Point Us to One Person We Can Trust. As we listen to Elizabeth teaching today, I can't help but think about how the gospel is the good news we need for the hurt we face as we navigate these relationships in a broken world. You can grab your copy of the study guide using the link in our show notes.

Kaley Olson:
Yep, and that's all for today, friends. For more audio products from Proverbs 31 Ministries, go check out our other two podcasts called Therapy & Theology w ith Lysa TerKeurst, and the Encouragement for Today Podcast. As always, we believe when you know the Truth and live the Truth, it changes everything.