The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast

Meredith Brock: Hello, friends. Welcome back to the Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast, where we share biblical truth for any girl in any season. I'm your host, Meredith Brock, and I am here with Kaley Olson, who is going to share a little bit about what you're gonna hear today.

Kaley Olson: Hey, Meredith. And hey, listeners.

So excited you're here today. You're gonna get to hear from Lysa TerKeurst as she interviews Pastor Craig Groeschel. And honestly, what more could you want in an episode? Lysa is talking with one of the top voices in leadership, whose podcast I personally listen to quite often.

And I would say, today's episode lifts the hood on the topic of doubt. And what I mean by that is we're talking about doubting God, but how often are we really asking the questions that no one really wants to ask out loud that are related to doubt? Things like not being afraid to admit that sometimes we believe God will answer anyone else's prayers except for our own. That's real. Which leads me to the topic of deconstruction.

Yes, they go there, and honestly, I'm grateful they do, because it needs to be talked about from a pastor's perspective. And it's a very, very helpful conversation. And honestly, so much more. This is such a rich episode that will practically equip you and tenderly remind you that God loves you so much and deeply wants a relationship with you, doubts included.

Meredith Brock: This really is what we are so passionate about at Proverbs 31.

We want you to know the truth of God's word and live that truth because it changes everything in your life. And sometimes it starts with our doubts and digging into what God's word says about what we're facing. I love that we're equipping you to do that through things like Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast and so many more of our resources. One of those resources you can get right now for absolutely free using the link in our show notes. It's titled, “Why Isn't God Answering My Prayers?”

Real question for the day. But you guys have heard enough from us. Let's go listen to Lysa and Craig.

Lysa TerKeurst: Well, Pastor Craig Groeschel is absolutely not only one of my favorite guests to interview on any podcast, but also he is a dear personal friend.

Craig, thank you so much for taking time to be with us today.

Craig Groeschel: Hey, Lysa. I'm always, always enjoy time with you. I think you still hold the record for being the, the, most returning guest on my podcast. So it's a I'm a fan of your work as you know and and, and always love talking to you.

Lysa TerKeurst: Thank you. You're such a good champion for me, and I I really appreciate it so, so much. I am really excited about your new book, The Benefit of Doubt. I think it is a topic that I've been so excited to talk to you about because it's something I personally wrestle through. And I think those of us who have been through hard things and not really understanding why God allows certain things to happen, that can also lead to things like people leaving the church, people getting disillusioned with God, deconstruction, all of that.

And I'm so grateful that we have a resource written by someone like you who is a completely trusted voice to speak into what seems like a very hard but necessary topic to discuss. But if I'm honest with you, I wish we didn't even have to talk about this. I wish that we didn't even have to wrestle with doubt.

Craig Groeschel: And well, your your books, Lysa, are generally in the vein of things that we wish we didn't wanna have to talk about too. Right?

Lysa TerKeurst: Exactly.

Craig Groeschel: Your your last book, I Want to Trust You, but I Don't, you know, you're you're just kind of known for, gut level raw authenticity and you know going to places that everybody tends to live there but not everybody always talks about it and so that's that's kind of the spirit behind the book The Benefit of the Doubt and you know you do such a good job of talking directly to you know the the challenges that we face that are you know incredibly painful so yeah doubt doubt is a really big problem and it's one that's often people shy away from they're embarrassed to talk about in Christian circles, and we often handle it wrong. And so we can talk all about any of that any of that you're, you wanna talk about.

Lysa TerKeurst: Okay. Well, let's start.

First of all, thank you for all your kind words. I think my book, I Want to Trust You, but I Don’t, and your book, Benefit of the Doubt, it they these two subjects go hand in hand, and so I am really excited to pick your brain about a couple of things. First question, which is a hard one, why does even I mean, why does God even allow doubt? Well is there a purpose –

Craig Groeschel: That it's it's a big question because in in kind of buried in that, why does God allow pain?

Why does God allow death? Why does God allow suffering? And so I think if we go to the heart of God and we know you know what is God he's a lot of things he's he's just he's righteous he's kind he's compassionate he's loving you know he scripture says God is love it's not just what he does but it's who he is. And so when God created us in order for us to love him back he had to give us free will. You know he could have created us just where we're we're just obedient we have no choice but then that wouldn't have been love.

And so when he gave us free will that created the great opportunity to choose love, to choose him, to choose righteousness, but it also gave us the, you know, the opportunity to choose sin, to choose hate, to choose wrong. And when we, you know, back in the garden when Adam and Eve sinned and, you know, we we kinda can blame Eve for her dumb choice and Adam for his passivity but chances are pretty dang good if we'd been there we probably would have chosen the wrong thing at some point or another. And then when sin entered the world brokenness entered the world pain, hurt, death, and such and so doubt in many ways is a byproduct of sin. It's a it's a broken fellowship with God and so with without Jesus we are we're broken we're distant from God and and so you you know with Jesus and God's word that's what will help and good community will help us grow through our doubts but because we don't know God intimately because of sin that that's the barrier that gives us the capacity for doubt and so most of us at some point or another on our journey of growing to know Jesus more intimately will probably be faced at least at some point with questions, things we don't understand, hurts, maybe some question in the bible, maybe, you know, a friend, you know, pushes back.

And and so I would just say, you know, don't be afraid of doubts. Just recognize that doubts, they're they're a part of any growing faith.

Lysa TerKeurst: That's so good. I I was writing in my journal the other day about my own personal struggle sometimes with doubt. And for me, I don't doubt that God is faithful.

I don't doubt that God is good. That's part of the problem when I go through things that I can't possibly understand. How could a good God allow this? How could a faithful God bring another situation, you know, on top of already hard situations?

You've mentioned that this is one of the most personal books that you've written. Talk a little bit about your own personal journey with that.

Craig Groeschel: Well, it's on several levels, Lysa. You know, one is just as a child going to church I just I made so many deals with God that all he had to do is meet one of my requirements and I'd given my whole life to him and been a missionary in Africa. You know it was it was kind of those things like I was I was trying to make God into a transactional God to prove himself.

So there was a just a just a long journey of that. Then my next kind of season of doubts was like doubting my salvation. Is is the grace of Jesus really enough to cover my sins? Because I don't I can't seem to be good enough. And so then there was doubting salvation and my next layer of doubt was oddly enough people find this you know kind of strange and it is but was in seminary.

And you know I had a professor that was smarter than I was, better educated than I was, that didn't believe certain things about the Bible and that threw me into another season of doubt. Then you know more recently it's hard to admit that you know as a pastor for thirty plus years that I still have doubts but I don't like like you I don't doubt the power of God, the goodness of God, and I don't doubt the power of God to heal Lysa but I have prayed so faithfully for so many people that weren't healed that I started to kind of doubt that he could answer my prayers. So he may answer your prayers for someone to be healed but not mine. Then the kind of the thing that did push me over to write the book was we grew up with Amy and I homeschooled. Actually she homeschooled, I principled and barely principled meaning I was supportive but she did all the work, you know.

And we had this community of just dozens of kids that grew up in my home called me dad in the church faithful to Jesus and some of them when they turned 18 went off to college they just they started doubting and would deconstruct in what I'd call maybe not a helpful way for them. We got hurt mad at the church a few of them and these were like almost like my kids and it broke my heart. So what I did is I just really tried to get intimately involved in what were their hurts, questions, fears, objections, understand it, hear where they're coming from and then that that was what kind of pushed me over the edge to say I want to write about this to both help people that are struggling and then to give the people that love those that are struggling the tools to help them grow through instead of push them away. Because I think that as Christians with good intentions we often end up, hurting people in their doubts or even hurting their faith more than giving them the opportunity to grow through them. Long answer, but there's there's just so much there.

Lysa TerKeurst: There's so much there, and I relate to so much of what you're talking about. It can feel scary when someone we love goes through that process of and they they can title it deconstructing or, you know, doubting certain fundamental things that they were taught as a child. But as they grow up, their more logical mind kinda steps in, and it seems like sometimes logic is in conflict with faith. And I love on page seven you wrote doubts don't make you a bad Christian, they make you human. And I've often said, I don't I don't think it's I don't think doubt is proof of a lack of faith.

I think doubt is that you've had great faith, and now you have got some questions.

Craig Groeschel: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

The, never having a doubt might means you never had faith. Meaning, you know, it's it's a doubt is born out of the desire to believe in a in a struggling a struggling faith and that's not a bad thing. I mean, you see, I I like, you know and you would know the story of the dad with the demon possessed boy is like going I think I you know help me and I do believe Jesus you can do this but help me in my own belief. And in other words I think there are a lot of us that we have like an incomplete faith, a partial faith, and you know to think about I don't know anybody that ever graduates with perfect faith. Meaning like now I have faith and I've got my degree and I never have a doubt.

I'm more like that dad like a lot of times I believe mostly but not all the way there. And Jesus was kind with them. He didn't you know rebuke the guy, he still he walked him through his questions, he strengthened his faith, and he healed his son. So that's really encouraging to me to watch. If you look, Lysa, look at all the different times Jesus encountered people with doubt and how he treated them.

He if Jesus made space for doubts, we should too. Right?

Lysa TerKeurst: That's right. And I often see too Jesus loved to do personal ministry and had intimate conversations with people who were having doubts. And I just think sometimes it can feel scary, though, for us to enter into that conversation.

Is there something that your book will help us, with those kinds of conversations and and better understand, like, what to say, what not to say? It says I'm deconstructing my faith.

Craig Groeschel: Yeah. So I I could talk for an hour and I'll try not to, but that that is that's one of two purposes of the book. One is to help people that are doubting, two is to equip those who are walking with people that are are questioning.

And a lot of times we just don't get it right when you know like a parent has a kid come in and has a question and sometimes the parents take a person like how could you do this to me? Look at the way I raised you. And what like a parent needs to know is you know a child tends to grow up under your faith, meaning the parents faith, and your child probably has to ask some real questions to make faith their own. And so that's not a bad thing in most cases it's a kid that's genuinely trying to know God, answer some questions on their own. So what I wanna really try to do is kind of dignify doubt and we're not gonna pursue it and seek it but like I think Thomas probably got a bad rap.

You know he was just a guy, I think Thomas when you know he's known as a doubter, I think he's the guy that had been through some stuff. He'd probably been hurt. He wanted to know for himself and you know he really was full of faith. He was the guy that said, hey we'll go die with you. He wasn't afraid of the hard things.

He just wanted to make sure he knew what was expected and then you know show me. And if you show me I'll do it. And what's amazing about Jesus is he gave Thomas what he needed. He didn't shame Thomas. He didn't say I'm disappointed in you for your questions.

He gave him what he needed, and so I wanna try to help people see that when someone doubts that's not it's not an evidence of a lack of faith. It's actually a hunger maybe for a deeper faith. And if they are struggling and maybe saying I don't believe this what we wanna do is I would say like the church and the home should be the two safest place places to ask hard questions, and many times people don't feel like they are. They're afraid at church if I express this doubt maybe I'm the only one.

You know they're gonna look down on me. I'm gonna be judged. Obviously I'm not good enough. Or in their home you know they're afraid of disappointing somebody and it's just not a subject we should be afraid of it's a subject we should acknowledge. Most of us will experience it at some point and how we handle it can either help strengthen our faith or handled poorly it is, it could be it could be devastating to people's faith.

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. I remember one time my therapist taught me this statement, and I think it applies here, is that we need to get curious, not furious. And I think you make up you bring up such a good point. Like, we need to learn to just simply ask more questions before we personalize, especially if it's one of our kids or somebody that we've mentored or somebody we have a deeply invested stake in what they're doing.

And I think part of the reason that we're afraid is that we don't know how to give them the answers that they're looking for. You know? And that's okay. I think sometimes it's okay to just say, you know what?

That is an excellent question, and I'd really like to explore this more with you. What are some other ways we could do that?

Craig Groeschel: Well, yeah. And you can you know, sometimes we just aren't gonna have all the answers. Like, you know, why did God that happen?

And you can say you know we can make up reasons, we can we can find good in tragedy, but sometimes you just say his ways are higher than our ways and instead of answering every question sometimes you just hurt with people. Like you literally just say I know this is heartbreaking and I'm sorry I'm gonna hurt with you and be in the moment. So sometimes people need answers other times they just need comfort. You know they need somebody there with them and so we kind of want to discern is this a question that yes you know hey there seems to be a contradiction in the Bible I don't understand. Well let's go study that together.

That's a good thing to do or let's bring someone else in that can help us. And you know like when you look at the Psalms David and others they didn't hold back with God and so I'd say sometimes we're tempted to like deny our doubts to push them down and then they're always kind of there. I would just say don't be afraid of it God can handle it and in the right community with the right people you can actually you know deconstruction that's a that's a a loaded word in Christian circles and one is a lot of people don't understand it, two is it's often done poorly, three is I could actually probably make an argument that deconstruction done properly is a form of discipleship and I could probably show you where I think Jesus helped people deconstruct in a godly way. Right five times in the the Sermon on the Mount Jesus said, You've heard it said, but I say to you. In other words what's he saying is, you grew up believing this and I'm gonna tell you right now this isn't the heart of my father.

And so let's deconstruct the wrong belief, let's replace it with the right belief, but I say unto you here's truth. In a sense what is that? That's discipleship, that's that's a healthy deconstruction and you know that was from the heart of Jesus and the problem is everything we believe about God is not necessarily true. We all read the same Bible but we read it through our own lens. The churches preach it a different way same Bible but they you know different emphasis, and sometimes we pick up you know wrong cultural beliefs, wrong family beliefs, we get too legalistic about something, not legalistic enough.

And so in any growing faith there's gonna be times we're gonna go oh that's actually not consistent with the character of God. It's not a bad thing it's a good thing I learned it so I'm gonna deconstruct or take away what's not true, replace it with what is true, and and we're growing. We're closer to God. So that's not it's not a bad thing. It's actually it's exciting.

You know to this day I'm still learning, unlearning some things that were inconsistent with truth and replacing it with a deeper, more intimate knowledge of who God is?

Lysa TerKeurst: I think unlearning and replacing it with something that's closer and more consistent with truth and God's heart has been such an important part of my journey for the past ten years. You know, I went through, so many hard things that, that resulted in the death of my marriage and my family being, just knee deep in trauma and everybody trying to find their way out. And to some extent, you know, the ripple effects of that still find their way into, into some of my kids' lives, and that's really tough. Yesterday, I was having a conversation with one of my daughters, and, she's not deconstructing her faith or anything like that, but she is really, really upset about another hard thing that has happened.

And she she was expressing to me that she has this hesitancy to really pour out all of her frustration before the Lord because she feels like that she should kinda tidy some of those thoughts up before she comes to the Lord, and she's having a hard time tidying them up. And I said, you do not have to tidy them up. I said, look at David. David was a man after God's own heart. He was very untidy.

And the way that he expressed things in the Bible lets us see his frustration, his angst, his doubts, his questions, all of that. And, you know, I was also explaining to her, like, that's part of having a relationship. What God wants from us is not tidy thoughts. What God wants from us is a relationship. And in a relationship, there's gonna be angst at times, and it's okay.

I I think God delights in us bringing things to him and saying, help me. Give me relief from my unbelief. You know, give me give me a sign of of of who you are and and help me help me believe the way that is more in line with what is actually true.

Craig Groeschel: It's so true. God can handle your hurts all day long. And, if it like if one of my children comes to me and, you know, they're upset, they're hurting, do am I even if they're disappointed in me, am I mad? Actually, no. We can work things out and I want to be close to them and that's the heart of God. And even in that vein Lysa, Amy and I have been we've been going so hard so much lately and I was like missing her and so two nights ago we went out to dinner and she just started telling me some of her frustrations.

Thankfully they weren't with me because they often are. You know because I'm a guy and and I'm dumb sometimes but she was talking about how she was hurting and I felt so close to her that she was pouring her heart out to me and I think God I don't think he's offended by our questions or our hurts. I think he's a heavenly father that loves us, he understands that we only see in parts, and when we draw near to him he draws near to us. I think a great example is Peter when, you know the story when Jesus was walking on water and Peter gets out and walks on water with him and then he looks around and goes, oh there's wind and waves everywhere and he starts to sink. And Jesus reaches into the water, pulls him out and he says you know why'd you doubt?

Why'd you have a little faith? And I always read that for years because I've been more you know more legalistic in my thoughts or whatever. I thought Jesus was disappointed in him and then I looked at it through like looking through the heart of Jesus I think he might have been a little surprised like why'd you doubt? You know you've seen me heal and you know we're doing this together and so if he was sinking in his doubts Jesus pulled him out right? Jesus reached down his hand.

He didn't say, sink you dumb doubter. You know he loved him in the middle of his doubts and so that just gives me a comfort to know if I'm doubting he's not going. Why are you doubting? Let your little face be like, Hey you know I'm good, you know I'm with you, why are you doubting? You know draw close to me.

And I think just looking at life and our hurts with the pureness of the character of who God is, that he is righteous, he is true, he is pure, he is holy, he is just, he is a compassionate God, he's a kind God, he's a loving God, he's a gracious God, then it changes the tone of what we feel and it and it allows us to be intimate with him even if we're mad at him.

Lysa TerKeurst: That's so good. I love how you took the narrative of what Jesus is saying instead of using a voice of Jesus that was shaming to Peter. It's more like, why'd you doubt?

You know?

Craig Groeschel: Jesus wasn't shaming sinners. He's always loving them toward righteousness. He's not shaming Peter. I don't I I'm almost positive.

He's like, he's loving you. Like, come on. There's more there's more. I'm I'm here for you.

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. That's so good. What's your favorite part of the book?

Craig Groeschel: I would say in you know, we go through big question, like why don't I feel the presence of God? Is Jesus really the the only way to God? I think to me the experiential parts of the books are even more favorite than the thinking parts.

What's interesting like a lot there are people that get hung up on intellectual beliefs but in my practice in ministry I think it's more experiential that that that people are dealing with today. They'll be they'll be hurt by a Christian and so they'll think you know all Christians are hypocrites and God's not real and get mad at the church. And and I'm not gonna ever make fun of that but I do wanna really look at that from a genuine spiritual perspective and say what are we dealing with here? And so that so I I really enjoy that part. People will say I prayed and God didn't answer my prayer.

Why? That's experiential. And I'll go through and show like really some very clear scriptural reasons as why he might not have. And then you know take you to the point of understanding he's he's always good and and I will deal with like why don't I always feel the presence of God. Like he's other people seem to.

So my favorite part is is what I'd call like experiential doubts where there's I'm hurting so I don't know where God is. Someone hurt me so I'm mad at the church. And I I really like talking about those things because so many people live there and I try to do it with the level of honesty that you know some Christians may not like it because I'm trying to be so honest but I want to give people permission to talk about those things. And I'd love to talk about any of that. You know people are mad at the church and leaving the church.

Let's talk about it, you know, like, now or anytime. People god didn't answer your prayer. Let's talk about it. And and I think those things can be really, really helpful.

Lysa TerKeurst: That's so good. We're talking to Pastor Craig Groeschel about his book, The Benefit of Doubt, How Confronting Your Deepest Questions Can Lead to a Richer Faith. Okay. So as we wrap up here, I am gonna tell you a little story, about a doubt that sometimes really can wreck me. And, again, it's not that I it's not that I'm struggling with my faith. It's it's not at all that I doubt God's goodness.

It's it's none of that. But one of the things that I have written about and processed and I still find myself having this angst around is why does it seem like when someone hurts you really, really bad. That they're just getting away with it? And I know there's things going on behind the scenes that, you know, they're not totally getting away with it. But sometimes that is really hard.

And, of course, in my world, because of my story, I deal with a lot of women. I help a lot of women whose husbands have left them, left their kids, and they go off. And it seems like he is just living a Disney World life while she's at home dealing with the fallout, trying to manage a household by herself. It is so brutally hard, and it just feels incredibly unfair.

And so I would just love for you to tenderly talk to that woman or, you know, even even to me in wrestling to with some of that because I think you have such a wonderful pastoral presence and voice. And a lot of women that are listening, they have not heard the tender voice of a man in a really long time.

Craig Groeschel: Well, thank you for that trust. You know I would say first of all like you're right there you know there are so many people that are trying to honor their marriage and have a spouse that that doesn't and that's heart wrenching. You know some some a little girl their biggest desire in life is one day to get married and honor God in a marriage and that's their whole life points in that direction and then someone you know maybe and it can be a man or a woman but someone's unfaithful and it wrecks them.

And so I would just say first of all that's heartbreaking, it's not fair, it's not right, and and I would just sit in the moment and hurt for a while with you Lysa or with anyone who's in that situation and just say you know I'm sorry I'm in a hurt with you and no explanations can't make any excuses for it and then just be there for a while. If the person is mad at God and sometimes they are I would try to talk through that and I wouldn't give advice but I'd ask questions. You know I might I might just say like so I understand you're kind of mad at God so what part of this story do you think that did God allow? Does it you know and and did God did God cause us? I would try to help separate a person's behavior from the character of God.

And I'd help try to help lead them there because even Christians, non Christians we we all behave in ways that are not honored to God. So I try to help them separate a person's behavior from the character of God and then we try to I try to draw their focus to the character of God because we're not gonna find even if the person is getting away with things and having a great life that's not gonna change us or if they they're punished greatly for what they deserve that's not gonna change us. It's the character of God that changes us and that's where we're gonna find healing. And so I try to point them to the character and the nature of God and then I would stay there for a long time. Eventually once they're starting to find a place of healing then we might talk about how do we move on with or without that person?

Is this the point, and you wrote about it better than anybody, that we're gonna forgive something that feels completely unforgivable. You know but I'm not starting there because it's just it's almost not fair because the person's still too raw. You know that's like forgiveness can be a process, it could be immediate but for some people you actually might need to take two or three steps pre forgiveness before before I would even take them there because I think that would be cruel to take them there too fast. So I would try to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit in their lives but the the biggest thing would be to acknowledge the hurt, not make excuses for it, apologize for it, hurt with them, and then move to the character of God separating from the behavior and then try to find healing in God. Try to help them see there there is hope after hurt.

There's always hope after hurt that there you know your story today is a beautiful story of God's grace in another chapter of your life and that that chapter previous chapter was painful and it hurt a lot of people and there's still a lot of questions there's still a lot of residue there might always be but you're still living in the grace of God and he's proving his goodness to you in a different way. And you know him more intimately through your hurts today than you would have without him. I wouldn't tell them that but I'd help them experience that over time and and what I've learned Lysa is that walking with people I used to try to fix things fast that God is a patient God and we need to be patient on God's timing and not rush the process but walk with people through it and just be I would say this if you're going through that and we're close and it's appropriate you know maybe Amy and I are walking with you I would say Lysa we're going to walk through this with you the next few years we're not going to leave you.

We're going to we're going to stay close to you and we're going to we're going to stay with you as we together see the goodness of God and we're not going to leave you. So I would I would also make a promise that and I would live up to it that we're gonna walk with you through this. This isn't a conversation where we're gonna fix it. We're gonna walk on a journey of getting to know God and letting him do a healing work in us. And and I'd I'd spend some time on that and find that's when you give God space to work like that he is really a good God and his word is true that he works in all things even the worst things.

And you've seen it right? The things you would never ever choose never want to go through again. You see how he's used it to bring about good to glorify himself and to make you even in your brokenness you're closer to him than before. Long answer again but it's a bit it's a big question and it's not there's not one, two, threes this is a you have to be this is a flowing journey of walking with people, caring with them, being patient, loving them, not judging them, not preaching at them, but loving them toward the God of scripture. And and he and, ultimately, he's a really, really good God.

Lysa TerKeurst: I think that's some of the best advice that you could give because I think sometimes those big questions deserve slow unfolding answers rather than just trying to put a neat little Band Aid on something that deserves so much more. And I think that daily walking it out and the slow processing and letting the goodness of God unfold in their life in a way that if they can't notice it because they're so swallowed up with the pain that it can be gently pointed out. You know, that's evidence of God's goodness.

I mean, God's character is his personal promise to us. That has helped me so much. You know, sometimes I'll read promises in the Bible, and I'm like, yeah. But does that really apply to me, or is that just for that person? And, I realized that God's character is always his personal promise to me, and that has helped a lot.

And I have the benefit now of being a decade removed from the initial implosion of my family. And I think that when we read about Jesus in the Bible, so many times at the mention of Jesus, grace and truth are connected. And sometimes God's grace is allowing time for that person to repent and allowing time for that person to have experiences, and then the truth and justice eventually do come. Because when someone sins, they've unleashed the consequences of that sin even if it's not felt immediately.

And so I've just seen I have the benefit now of time unfolding, and, man, God has revealed to me over and over and over, God will not be mocked. And we don't have to see how his correction unfolds, but we can stand on the truth that his grace and truth will prevail in every situation. So I think the advice you gave is so absolutely excellent because time is really your friend in a situation like this.

Craig Groeschel: And I I like that. You you know, you're talking now more about the justice of God.

And so, you know, I kinda started with the grace part, and you're you're now what you're saying is true. Like, you do reap what you sow, and sin always has consequences and always is punished. And that's a part of the conversation too you would have with that person, but it's gonna be at a certain time. It's you know we don't we don't we don't want to lead with you know they're gonna be burning in hell where there's you know weeping and gnashing of teeth. And they might but that's not our focus isn't to bring about retribution or justice to the person.

As far as we can live at peace with everyone we're gonna do that so we're gonna search our hearts and then I think you're right too though that's you know I I I'm more just and legalistic so I have to work toward grace and I think you know I don't know for sure but you may be more on the grace side and so you are actually talking yourself into the justice side of of God too because he's he's he's so he's so good he's all of it he's all the good things together. Yeah and I think walking with people over God can heal a person instantly and he does sometimes, but a lot of times it takes layers of the work of the spirit to renew our renewing our mind isn't usually a one time event. It's a renewing. It's an ongoing process.

Same with healing. And that's what I'm so thankful for your books. I mean I've got just an army of people who say they've changed their lives, your books. And because you you know, you you take us through the messiness into a into a real genuine healing. So

Lysa TerKeurst: Oh, thank you so much. Again, Pastor Craig Groeschel, pastor at Life Church, but also dear friend of mine and author of the new book, The Benefit of Doubt, How Confronting Your Deepest Questions Can Lead to a Richer Faith. I think this might be one of your most important books yet, and I am so excited for people to get their hands on it. I think, like you said, it's not just for the person who's doubting, but it's also for people who love people who are doubting and wanna know how to have those conversations that are helpful and not hurtful in the middle of the process. Pastor Craig, thank you so much. As always, you have been an absolute joy to be with.

Craig Groeschel: Hey, thank you. It's just a pleasure to be on and from our family to you, we love you and we do celebrate you. You're easy to celebrate. You're fun to celebrate. We're super thankful for you.

Lysa TerKeurst: Thank you so much.

Kaley Olson: Okay, Meredith. Wow. What a conversation. Something that Craig said in this episode that I think was truly freeing is this.

Doubting isn't the evidence of a lack of faith. It's evidence of a hunger for a deeper faith. And he said that it's what you do with your doubt that is either destructive or develops a more intimate knowledge of who God is. And I'm just thinking about our friends who are walking through hardship right now that could lead you to seriously doubting. And maybe you feel ashamed.

I just want you to know that you don't have to be. If we see doubt as a symptom of a hunger to know God more intimately, then I think that is really beautiful.

Meredith Brock: I couldn't agree more, Kaley. And honestly, that's exactly why Proverbs 31 Ministries exists. It's to equip you, our listeners, with biblical resources for what you're facing because we understand what you're walking through.

If you're listening and want a resource to help you right now with the doubt you're facing around why God isn't answering your prayers, we have one ready for you. Go to the show notes and enter your email to get Lysa's free resource titled, “Why Isn't God Answering My Prayers?”

Kaley Olson: And don't forget to grab Craig's book, the Benefit of Doubt, using the link in our show notes. At Proverbs 31 Ministries, we believe when you know the truth and live the truth, it changes everything.