The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast

Meredith Brock:
Hi, friends. Thanks for joining us for another episode of The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast, where we share biblical Truth for any girl in any season. I'm your host, Meredith Brock, and I'm here with my co-host, Kaley Olson.

Kaley Olson:
Hey, Meredith. We just recorded a really great episode on the Enneagram. I know you're going to tell us a little bit about what we heard from our new friend, Meredith Boggs, but before I do that, and before we talk about that, I do want to let our listeners know right now that this episode is split into two parts. We're going to cover half right now, and then in the next episode you'll hear the other half. And so, Meredith, do you want to tell them what they're going to hear in this first half?

Meredith Brock:
Absolutely. Well, we will cover [Enneagram] Types 1-4 in this first episode. But before our Types — I'm starting to use the lingo already, Kaley — let's just be honest. We all know we've heard or been a part of conversations where the Enneagram can be a little bit of a hot-button [topic]. Some people are in, hook, line and sinker, y'all. They think about it all the time. They talk about it all the time. And then to others of us who are a little bit more conservative in our approach to self-examination or just tools that we use in our life to understand the world, this might feel a little bit controversial, and we're not so sure how to feel about the Enneagram or if Christians should even use the Enneagram. And so, first off, I want you to know that we addressed that right out of the gate.

Kaley Olson:
We did.

Meredith Brock:
In this first episode, we talk about, "Should a Christian use the Enneagram? Can the Christian use the Enneagram?" So we're going to address that right out of the gate. But I think the biggest thing I learned through this process is: Kaley, the Enneagram is a tool, at least in my experience. I have seen the Holy Spirit use it in my life personally to identify some of my own sin patterns and where I desperately need the Holy Spirit's intervention to resolve some of those sin patterns to make progress toward more Christlikeness. And so I just hope our listeners today can open their hearts to hear that part of the Enneagram. It's a tool to help you see your desperate need for our gracious God, who sent His Son to die on the cross and to leave the Holy Spirit with us to change us.

Kaley Olson:
Mm-hmm. Yeah. That was a great explanation of it, and I'm excited to let our listeners listen to it. But before we do that, I did want to mention that we also, outside of The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast that you're listening to now, have two more shows that you can listen to right now.

There's the popular Therapy & Theology podcast, hosted by Lysa TerKeurst and featuring her licensed professional counselor, Jim Cress, and Proverbs 31 Ministries’ Director of Theological Research, Joel Muddamalle. There are so many great episodes available you can listen to now. Or you can listen to the brand-new Encouragement for Today Podcast, where each week you'll hear a short devotion that gives you a few moments with God as you start your day. Both of these podcasts are available on any listening platform, and we can't wait for you to check them out.

All right, friends, that's enough from me and this Meredith. Let's go hear from our new friend Meredith.

Meredith Brock:
All right, friends, we are here with my friend … wait for it … Meredith Boggs! A fellow Meredith B., a fellow Meredith B. with a five-letter last name. Meredith Boggs, welcome to the podcast.

Meredith Boggs:
Hello. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Kaley Olson:
Well, before this podcast episode, I actually went to the courthouse and changed my name to Meredith Blogs. And so now we've got three Merediths on the show because I'm feeling a little left out over here.

Meredith Brock:
Oh, my goodness.

Kaley Olson:
I'm just kidding, just kidding. I will be the oddball out. And I don't know how we're going to refer to Mere and Meredith. Meredith Boggs, do you have a nickname that you go by?

Meredith Boggs:
Yeah, I go by Mere.

Kaley Olson:
Wonderful. Wonderful. Well, I'll go by Mere, too. We'll be the Meredith show today. Anyways, Meredith, we're so excited that you're here today. Will you tell everyone a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Meredith Boggs:
Yes. Well, I am a Nashville-born-and-raised girl, and I am a first-time author. My first book is coming out in a few months. I'm also a wife and a mom. I've got a little rambunctious toddler boy, and we have another little boy coming in a few months, which is really exciting.

Kaley Olson:
Yay.

Meredith Boggs:
And then my night job is that I'm a nurse. I have been a nurse for about 10 years, and I work in critical care transport and also as a forensic nurse examiner for patients who have experienced sexual assault.

Kaley Olson:
Wow.

Meredith Boggs:
So in that part of my life, I take care of people on the worst day of their lives, which is sometimes really ... I hate that I have to be in that role for them, but I'm really thankful to get to do work to help people. So, yeah. That's a little bit about me.

Meredith Brock:
Now, Meredith, you used this term that I don't feel like is properly telling them what you really do. You said you do medical transport.

Meredith Boggs:
Yes.

Meredith Brock:
Tell them what you really do, please. Come on.

Meredith Boggs:
I work for Life Flight, so we're the people who come and pick you up when you get in a car wreck on the side of the interstate, or if you're at some tiny little hospital out in the middle of nowhere, we come and get you and bring you into the big city and get you all the resources that you need.

Meredith Brock:
How do you do that, though, Meredith?

Meredith Boggs:
You do that either on a helicopter or an ambulance or an airplane, one of the three modalities, so it just kind of depends your location.

Meredith Brock:
I just think that's really cool.

Kaley Olson:
That is really cool. That is really cool.

Meredith Boggs:
Well, thanks.

Meredith Brock:
OK, OK, now that we know a little bit more about you and the incredible adventures that you go on every day — talk about swinging the pendulum, guys. She's got a toddler. She's pregnant, and she has a toddler during the day, and at nighttime ...

Kaley Olson:
At nighttime, yeah.

Meredith Brock:
This feels like Wonder Woman to me.

Kaley Olson:
Yeah. She is Wonder Woman.

Meredith Brock:
She jumps on a helicopter and goes and saves people's lives.

Kaley Olson:
Yeah. Yeah.

Meredith Brock:
And then, somewhere in between, she writes books.

Kaley Olson:
Yeah.

Meredith Brock:
Heaven help you, Meredith Boggs. OK, let's talk about what we are here to talk about today, and that is our very first question. I'm excited because I know your book is called The Journey Home: A Biblical Guide to Using the Enneagram to Deepen Your Faith and Relationships. And, Meredith, let's just lay it out there. There are lots of different thoughts around the Enneagram within the Christian community.

Meredith Boggs:
Yes.

Meredith Brock:
Some people are eyeball deep in it. They love it. It's a way that has really helped them process life and their relationships. Others are like, "Whoa. There's this weird star thing with a circle around it — that reminds me of something else. I'm kind of freaked out here. I don't think I want to go down that road." So let's start right there, OK? Let's start with the first question: Should Christians use the Enneagram in their personal lives, and how can they use the Enneagram in their personal lives?

Meredith Boggs:
Yeah, I think that is the best question to start with because you have to either qualify or disqualify something before you use it, especially when it comes to spiritual matters. So I think the question of should you or should you not use it is your own decision. That's between you and God. I think Christians can use the Enneagram. And if they do decide to use it, the way that they can use it is as a tool for self-knowledge. That's essentially what the Enneagram is.

I do think that Scripture is clear about the importance of self-knowledge. Lamentations 3:40 tells us to; it says, "Let us examine our ways and test them …" (NIV). And so knowing ourselves is a really crucial piece to this journey toward Christlikeness, understanding our unique struggles, our sin tendencies, helping us navigate temptation and potential pitfalls, and also knowing our areas of strength that we can lean into. How we can be refined and shaped more in the image of Christ to better serve Him and do the Kingdom work is another important piece of self-knowledge, using our gifts and stewarding them in a way that ultimately brings Him glory.

And I think knowledge of self also allows for this deeper intimacy with God and others. And I think compassion is kind of the underlying … kind of the common thread through it all. We have this compassion for ourselves where we struggle. It doesn't give us a license to sin, but it helps us understand why we have these tendencies and also [understand] our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, understanding why they may struggle in a way that we don't and also understanding how to use our gifts to better love and serve each other.

And I think John Calvin says it really well. He says, "Without knowledge of self, there is no knowledge of God. Without knowledge of God, there is no knowledge of self." So, to me, that's kind of the way that I sum up this answer to [the question] “Can Christians use the Enneagram?” And then … Should you or should you not use it? I really think that that's up to you and God. [In the Bible,] Paul says all things are permissible, but not all things are helpful. (1 Corinthians 10:23) And so if it's not helpful for you, if it's more of a stumbling block, then throw it out and don't use it. And if you do find it helpful, then use it, and use it in a wise way. Steward it well as just a tool in your tool belt on your journey of transformation. So that's my quick answer to the question.

Kaley Olson:
Yeah, for sure. That was a great answer, Meredith. And I know, in my own personal life, I have had people help me be more self-aware. I have read books that have helped me become more self-aware. I have had mistakes that I've walked through, or maybe even personal victories, where God used the Holy Spirit within me to illuminate, This is a good thing. Or, Kaley, this is a thing that you need to work on.

Meredith Boggs:
Yeah.

Kaley Olson:
And so I'm glad that you're here today and are going to really help us look at each personality type within the Enneagram so that we can … I know you're going to walk through how to help us understand each type's struggle and strength and how it relates to Scripture and ultimately points us toward more Christlikeness. And so I'm excited to learn. I know Meredith Brock over here is excited to learn, too. So, Meredith Boggs, you can take it away.

Meredith Boggs:
OK, so let's talk about it. Let's answer the question "What is the Enneagram?" first before we dive in. The Enneagram is a tool for self-knowledge. It has kind of been put into the same category as a personality typing system similar to Myers-Briggs, DISC or StrengthsFinder. But the biggest differentiator, and the reason I don't call it a “personality test,” is because it's really a tool for self-knowledge. And the Enneagram specifically focuses on motivations and core emotions rather than just the behaviors that we see.
So all of our behaviors are external. That can show up as whether we're introverted or extroverted, but the Enneagram really looks at that deeper level of what is motivating you. What are your underlying fears? What are the underlying emotions? So that's the biggest differentiator and why the Enneagram can be used as a self-knowledge tool and why I think it fits so perfectly in this journey of transformation and how you can grow in Christlikeness — growing in self-awareness, growing personally and ultimately growing to be more like Christ.

So we are going to do a quick overview of the nine types and their struggles and their strengths and then talk about a key Bible verse associated with each one. So we'll kick it off with the Type 1. Type 1s are known as the Perfectionists or Reformers. And, Kaley, that is your type. Is that correct?

Kaley Olson:
Yeah. You can't see this, but Meredith Brock is over here literally pointing her index finger at me.

Meredith Brock:
It's true.

Kaley Olson:
It's fine. I will go first. You can talk about me … because I know we're going to get to Type 8 eventually.

Meredith Brock:
Oh, yeah.

Kaley Olson:
And I will point at
Meredith Brock. So just let me have it. Let me have it.

Meredith Boggs:
We'll have to run through that really quick because it'll be at the end. So for both of us Type 8s, we'll have to breeze through. But Type 1s are known as the Perfectionists or Reformers. Their struggle is resentment. So Type 1s have the core emotion of anger. And I think it's important to understand that all emotions are not good or bad, right or wrong; they are human experiences. So anger in and of itself is not sinful, but it can morph into sinful behavior if we allow it to become bitterness and we become resentful, not addressing and resolving things in a timely manner.

So the key verse for this struggle is going to be Ephesians 4:26: "Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger ..." (ESV). And in this verse, Paul doesn't literally mean to resolve our anger before we go to bed, but rather he's talking about addressing it quickly so that it doesn't become toxic to us or to other people around it.

So, for Type 1s, understanding their struggle with anger can help them notice when they may be slipping into resentment, harboring hatefulness toward someone else instead of working quickly to resolve it. And also [when they need to] do the work of forgiving people of any wrongdoings they may have committed against them.

Their strength is peace. Type 1s … One of the best things about them is that they are people of high ideals, integrity, morals. They keep the world on track. They see the world as good/bad, right/wrong, black/white. And it's not always a bad thing that they see the world like that. We need some moral compasses in this society.

But what sometimes happens …. Type 1s see and feel the pain of this sinful, broken world that we live in so profoundly. And when they can make peace with this temporary imperfection, this temporary peace is not condoning sin, but it's making peace with this in-between time that we're living in, post-cross, pre-Second Coming, and trusting that God is working to make all things new in His time. When He returns, He will make everything right once and for all.

They are able to exhibit this virtue of peace, which strengthens other people in this imperfect time that we live in. So that key verse is John 16:33, which says, "I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world, you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world" (ESV).
Kaley, I want to hear from you. What do you think about that as a Type 1?

Kaley Olson:
Well, I definitely resonate with it because I've noticed obviously there's this feeling that I get whenever I recognize I'm slipping into the anger of … the struggle with anger, I guess. But it's usually based on something that I see that should be done in a way that I think it should be done, and maybe somebody else might not see it the exact same way. And so that doesn't necessarily make me right and them wrong, but I can tend to use my intentionality in thinking through something almost against someone and then kind of let that build into a resentment.

But one of the things that I think has been helpful for me as a Type 1 is … When I'm slipping into that, one of the worst things that I can do is stay siloed within it. One of the best things that I can do is bring someone in and say, "Will you help me think through this?" I almost enter dialogue with it in my head, and then that makes it worse, whereas if I am just more quick to stop myself and address what I think might be the problem, then that helps me create more peace.

Meredith Brock:
Can I make an observation?

Kaley Olson:
Yes.

Meredith Brock:
Meredith Brock, here, coming in strong. I think one of the things that I've observed the most … Kaley and I have worked together for how long now — nine years?

Kaley Olson:
Yeah, nine years.

Meredith Brock:
Nine years.

Meredith Boggs:
Wow.

Meredith Brock:
She was just a wee little baby when she started working for me.

Kaley Olson:
Now I have a baby.

Meredith Brock:
And now you have a baby — it's true — who’s almost a year old. That's wild.

Kaley Olson:
Yep. Yep.

Meredith Brock:
But one thing that I've seen you really, once we realized and talked through, "Oh, she's an Enneagram 1" … I immediately saw and I understood what a Type 1 was. This commitment to perfectionism I saw as a huge asset to the ministry, a huge asset to the ministry. But as your leader, I saw how much internal weight you carried.

Kaley Olson:
Yeah.

Meredith Brock:
Because you want to do everything perfect all the time.

Kaley Olson:
Yeah.

Meredith Brock:
And so there's this ... I don't know. You could call it what you want to, whether it's anxiety or not.

Kaley Olson:
Yeah.

Meredith Brock:
But I could see the actual internal weight that you carry to do everything perfect all the time. And as somebody in your life, when you would let me in — like you were just saying, when you would say, "Help me think through this" — I could turn some valves to hopefully release a little bit of the pressure that you were naturally putting on yourself. I could say, "Hey, it doesn't have to be totally perfect. Let's just get it to here. OK?" And so I think that's such good self-awareness, Kaley, that you were like, "OK, I need to bring somebody in on my processing around things. Otherwise, I'm going to push myself to this place of almost unattainable ability."

Kaley Olson:
Yeah.

Meredith Brock:
And constant disappointment. Does that sound right to you?

Kaley Olson:
Yeah. For sure. Yeah, absolutely. And I think this probably applies to every struggle in the Enneagram that you're going to go through. But the way that I process something should not be the way that I expect someone else to process through. And I think especially as a Type 1, because I do put so much intentionality in it, one thing that can build resentment is when I look at the way that somebody else might be doing something and I think, "Well, they're not doing it to my level or whatever.” But that's OK. And everybody else has their own strength that they can bring to something. And just because it's not like mine doesn't make it a bad thing. In fact, it makes it better because it complements it.

Meredith Boggs:
Yes.

Kaley Olson:
And so I have to let go of that perfectionism and use it where it's good but then bring others in to kind of value their opinions and what they can add to whatever we're working on, whether it's a project or even if it's just a relationship.

Meredith Brock:
Really good.

Kaley Olson:
That was really good.

Meredith Boggs:
Yes. I love that.

Kaley Olson:
All right. I love that. And I guess I'm done. I'll just sit back and listen to everybody else's types now.

Meredith Brock:
No, sorry, you [have a Type 2 wing], so let's hear about the Type 2 now.

Kaley Olson:
Oh yeah, that's right.

Meredith Boggs:
Yes. So the Type 2s are known as the Helpers or Givers. Their struggle is pride, which seems really strange and doesn't seem like it fits at first. But when you dive a little deeper, it's like, "Oh, that makes sense." So Type 2s are really focused on other people. They're generous, servant hearted, but sometimes they can overstep those boundaries and they swoop in as the hero, prescribing their own ideas of what they think others need and then meeting those needs themselves. And when they're acting on their own accord, they're really robbing God of His rightful place of all-sufficient Provider, where they are simply used as a vessel to accomplish the work that God is doing in this person's life.

So Proverbs 11:2 is the key verse here. It says, "When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with the humble is wisdom" (ESV). So we'll see this with the other Enneagram types, but their struggle and their strength tend to complement each other, or they actually tend to be opposites, but they complement each other really beautifully. And so the Type 2s … Their strength is humility. When Type 2s are able to recognize their place — their rightful place in submission to God's plan and their role within that plan in the lives of others, not as the mastermind behind meeting those needs — their service is a blessing that flows from God. And that is where their humility is exhibited. When they seek God for wisdom, He grants that to them, giving them understanding about how and when to act in service toward others. So James 4:6 is the key verse here, and it says, "But he gives more grace. Therefore, it says, 'God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble'" (ESV).

Kaley Olson:
I have a question for you, Meredith Boggs.

Meredith Boggs:
Yes.

Kaley Olson:
About Type 2s.

Meredith Boggs:
Yeah, yeah.

Kaley Olson:
Do you think sometimes we can take a personality that tends to always be humble for granted and expect that of people without really giving them an opportunity to show up in the best way for them?

Meredith Boggs:
Yeah.

Kaley Olson:
Does that make sense?

Meredith Boggs:
Yeah. And I think we … yes, absolutely. And I think we can do that with all the types.

Kaley Olson:
Yeah.

Meredith Boggs:
We can take types that have a certain tendency or certain proclivity toward operating or showing up in a certain way, and at worst, we can exploit it. At best, we can just take it for granted sometimes.

Kaley Olson:
Yeah.

Meredith Boggs:
And so, I think Type 2s are a classic example of that. At the worst, we've all seen Type 2s exploited, especially in the ministry space, where it's like, "Oh, these people are really generous, and they're giving, and they're servants. So we're just going to overwork them and not help them in this work of establishing boundaries." And at best, they're there, and they're loving, and they're serving, but we just take them for granted because it's what they do and it's how they show up in the world. So yeah, I think we absolutely do that with Type 2s, but we also do it with all the types in a certain way, which is good to be mindful of in our relationships with people.

Kaley Olson:
Mm-hmm. That's interesting.

Meredith Boggs:
Yeah. OK, so the Type 3s are known as the Performers or Achievers. They struggle with deceit. Type 3s tend to be shape shifters. They change their personality to meet whatever is most advantageous for their success. And sometimes this stems from roles that they began playing really early on in childhood. Maybe they took on the role as the good child or the smart student or the responsible one. And they were encouraged, maybe, by the adults in their lives, and sometimes they even took these roles on out of necessity to meet their own needs or desires. But eventually, as they grow older, they get stuck in this web of lies that they've created about who they really are, and they kind of lose themselves. And if they don't know who they really are anymore outside of this persona that they've created, they can cut corners to get ahead in life … crafting these narratives to help them get out of a bind.

And so Proverbs 26:24-26 is the key verse here. It says, "Whoever hates disguises himself with his lips and harbors deceit in his heart; when he speaks graciously, believe him not … though his hatred be covered with deception, his wickedness will be exposed in the assembly" (ESV). Which is pretty strong language there.

And so the strength of the Type 3 is: They bring hope. They bring the light of hope to the world. And I think this is really beautiful and powerful because when Type 3s do the work of untangling that web of lies that they've created, they get honest about who they really are, the image that they've crafted, and any sinful behaviors or dealings that they've engaged in. They walk the humble path of repentance and reconciliation. And that is a light of hope to the rest of us. If anyone has a Type 3 in their life and they've witnessed this firsthand, it's really beautiful. They are freed from this shame, and they offer hope to the rest of us. They are living testament of what is possible by the redemption of the work of the cross. And so Proverbs 23:18 is the key verse here. And it says, "Surely, there is a future, and your hope will not be cut off" (ESV).

Meredith Brock:

Meredith Boggs, I have a few Enneagram 3s in my life. And as such, I see the tension that they're caught in — because typically Enneagram 3s are outrageously successful people who, in the eyes of the world, when they look at them, they're like, "Man, I wish I could be like them." And so that admiration fuels their continued performance. And I can only ... It breaks my heart, honestly, because I feel like it puts the Enneagram 3 in this position to continue what might be — and I think you said it, but I'm not going to say it the exact same way you did, so correct me if I'm doing this incorrectly … They have deceived themselves about who they are. And that breaks my heart because then the world continues to applaud them for this person they have become. And they live in this space of just tension, where it's like, Well, everyone says that what I'm doing is good and who I am is good. But internally, if I'm really honest with myself, I've become disjointed.

Meredith Boggs:
Mm-hmm. Truly.

Meredith Brock:
Does that all align with what you've studied and learned about the Type 3?

Meredith Boggs:
Yeah. And I think our country and our culture does the biggest disservice to Type 3s. We applaud success, and we fuel it, and we love it, and we encourage it. And so Type 3s have built their whole lives on this pursuit of something that they're rewarded for. They're rewarded monetarily and in terms of the relational commodity that it buys them. They're applauded for it with the accolades and being esteemed in that. And like you said, it's kind of like they wake up one day and they're like, I don't even know who I am.
And I think one of the biggest fears for Type 3s is that there is no one underneath those masks and those roles, which is so heartbreaking because anyone who has a Type 3 in their life knows what amazing human beings they are.

Meredith Brock:
Yeah.

Meredith Boggs:
And how the Type 3s in our lives … It's like … We don't love them for anything that they do. We love them for who they are. And that's so much the work of the Type 3: understanding that their worth is not contingent on what they do but who they are as a son or daughter of Christ. And that work is so hard for them. And it's no wonder — because we live in a culture that esteems all their success and accomplishments. But I think, yeah, you hit the nail on the head, and I think the Type 3’s struggle is particularly hard, especially given our culture.

Meredith Brock:
I would agree. And I just want to say to all my Type 3s listening right now: We love you.

Kaley Olson:
Yeah.

Meredith Boggs:
Yes.

Meredith Brock:
And find your people who you can be honest with and safe with, and take the risk of letting down the mask.

Meredith Boggs:
Yeah.

Meredith Brock:
Because it's the most ... Like I said, I have a few Type 3s in my life who have trusted me enough to do that with me. And my gosh, just like you said, Meredith, it is beautiful. It brings so much hope because you can see the Christlikeness of wanting to do big things. There are just so many beautiful things about the Type 3, but you don't get to see it unless you create an atmosphere of trust with them so that they can let down the mask and really be who they are.

Kaley Olson:
Yeah, Meredith, that's a picture of the gospel there and how we can also be an example of Jesus to people here on this earth just by giving them an opportunity to just be who they are.

Meredith Brock:
Right, yeah.

Kaley Olson:
And come to us without fear of judgment or shame for any type.

Meredith Brock:
That's right.

Kaley Olson:
But especially a type who feels like they have to perform … We don't have to do that for God.

Meredith Brock:
Right.

Kaley Olson:
And so why would we have to do that for others?

Meredith Brock:
Yeah.

Kaley Olson:
I think that's really great.

Meredith Brock:
That's good.

Kaley Olson:
Yeah.

Meredith Brock:
All right. Coming in hot with the Type 4: Lay it on us.

Meredith Boggs:
Type 4s are known as the Individualist or the Romantic. Their struggle is envy. So Type 4s have this strange duality at play where they long to feel deeply connected to others, but they also want to be different and unique, unlike others. So envy emerges for Type 4s when, instead of channeling their energy into the beauty of the creative differences between them and others, they look longingly at what others have that they don't, believing that attaining that or achieving that state will bring them fulfillment and completeness. And these are things that are outside of Christ, which we know will not ultimately fulfill or complete us in any way. And so when these desires rise to an inordinate level, the Type 4 can become fixated and slip into this covetous place. So the key verse here is Proverbs 14:30. It says, "A tranquil heart gives life to the flesh, but envy makes the bones rot" (ESV).

So the strength of the Type 4 is equanimity. Some other terms that you can associate would be balancedness or self-control. Self-control is definitely much more biblical in nature.
But Type 4s, similar to Type 1s, feel the brokenness of this world on a visceral level. And Type 4s … they wear their hearts on their sleeves. They can allow their emotions to overtake them sometimes and really be the driving force of their lives instead of just an experience. If we think about anger, fear, shame, they're not sinful — they're just emotions — but they can become sinful and really damaging when they're acting as the driving force of our lives and of our decisions and reactions.

So the strength of equanimity and self-control for the Type 4s … It's evidence of the Holy Spirit in there, where their emotions are a propellant on their spiritual journey instead of the driving force. And so a kind of high-level "What does this actually mean?" example would be the emotions of shame and guilt. So we feel shame — we feel guilt — for our actions when they are wrong. And when we feel those, they don't feel good. So we can do one of two things. We can try to medicate those bad feelings; we can numb out with social media or Netflix, or we can drink, or we can overeat, over-exercise, shopping … all the vices that we think of. Or we can exercise self-control by not allowing these emotions to overtake us or [make us] act out in harmful ways but really lead us to the cross in repentance, which is where we ultimately find freedom and forgiveness for that guilt and shame.

So the key verse here is going to be Proverbs 25:28. It says, "A man without self-control is like a city broken into and left without walls." So they're left vulnerable and left exposed without this self-control.

Kaley Olson:
I was thinking of … Oh, go ahead, Meredith.

Meredith Boggs:
No, no, go ahead.

Kaley Olson:
Well, I was just thinking about how sometimes we can mistype a Type 4 as the very serious one and the emotional one. But there's a girl on staff here at Proverbs who is an Enneagram 4, and I know when she is in her strength, she has enough self-control to realize that she can let the joy of the Lord flow fully from her and be herself, in terms of using her emotions to be spunky and spontaneous and joyful and let us see who she is in that capacity. She's on our social media team. She is one of the most fun people here on staff.

And I'm always so surprised that she's kind of carefree in the sense of being a Type 4 because a lot of times we've mistyped them as being ... They're very aware of everything around them. And I think that when we can truly let them be comfortable in who they are and give them the space to be joyful and carefree, that really comes out, and they end up being some of the most fun and life-giving people to be around because that's them expressing some form of creativity inside them that God has given them. And I think that's really special.

Meredith Boggs:
I love that. Yeah. And that's the beauty of emotions: They were given to us. God even has emotions. But, yeah, they're not the driving force of our lives. They are these really beautiful expressions, like you're talking about here, of the joy of the Lord that everyone else gets to see and bear witness to and be a recipient of. So I love that. That's beautiful.

Kaley Olson:
Wow. Friends, this is such an incredible conversation we're having with Meredith Boggs, and I hope you're enjoying it as much as we are. I've loved learning from her about how each personality type is unique and specifically how God has wired us to reflect His image to the world.

But we are enjoying this conversation so much that we decided to split the podcast into two episodes because one long episode would be much longer than what you guys are used to hearing on The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast. So be on the lookout for part two of this special episode on the Enneagram with Meredith Boggs, coming out tomorrow, and continue listening as she shares more about Types 5-9.
Before you go, just a quick reminder that if you want to go ahead and grab Meredith Boggs’ book, The Journey Home: A Biblical Guide to Using the Enneagram to Deepen Your Faith and Relationships, you can do that by using the link in our show notes. Thanks so much for tuning in. At Proverbs 31 Ministries, we believe when you know the Truth and live the Truth, it changes everything.