The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast

Meredith Brock:
Well, hi, friends. Thanks for joining us for another episode of The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast, where we share biblical Truth for any girl in any season. I'm your host, Meredith Brock, and I am here with my co-host, Kaley Olson.

Kaley Olson:
Hey, Meredith, we're back for part two of our Enneagram conversation with our friend Meredith Boggs. What did we discover last week? It was Types 1-4, right?

Meredith Brock:
Types 1-4.

Kaley Olson:
OK.

Meredith Brock:
And we talked a little bit about “Should we even use the Enneagram as Christians?”

Kaley Olson:
We did.

Meredith Brock:
So that was an important part of the conversation to have.

Kaley Olson:
It was. And I love that she brought up how if this is something that is beneficial to you, that you feel like God can use, let Him.

Meredith Brock:
Yeah.

Kaley Olson:
But if not, that's OK too.

Meredith Brock:
Absolutely.

Kaley Olson:
I really appreciated that.

Meredith Brock:
We are certainly not subscribing to anything like "You have to engage with the Enneagram."

Kaley Olson:
Correct. Right.

Meredith Brock:
That's not where we're coming from at all.

Kaley Olson:
Right, right. Well, and for me it was really fruitful to be able to hear some of my own struggles and strengths as a Type 1 and let it be a reminder for me that God is using both of those things in my life —

Meredith Brock:
That's right.

Kaley Olson:
— to show where I might need to grow a little bit. To show me, Hey, Kaley, I gave you this specific thing in your life because I wanted to use it for good.

Meredith Brock:
That's right.

Kaley Olson:
So will you let me?

Meredith Brock:
Mmm.

Kaley Olson:
And so I'm excited to let our listeners listen to Types 5-9. And so we're going to let
Meredith Boggs take it away.

Meredith Boggs:
All right, we're going to move into the Type 5. They are known as the Investigators or Thinkers. Their struggle is avarice. And we tend to think of this in terms of greed for money, and there are some strings that are attached to that, but it's not completely that. Type 5s have this very deeply rooted fear of not having enough resources. So things like knowledge, time, energy and money are also included in that. They can adopt this scarcity mindset where they fear being in a vulnerable position of need. So this can lead them into these never-ending pursuits to accumulate enough, which puts them in a position of relying on their own self-sufficient endeavors instead of the all-sufficiency of Christ as their sovereign Provider. So Proverbs 28:25 is the key verse here. It says, "A greedy man stirs up strife, but the one who trusts in the Lᴏʀᴅ will be enriched" (ESV).

So their strength, like where we saw with the Type 2 … It's these seemingly opposite, but actually complementary, things. The Type 5’s strength is openhandedness or generosity. So Type 5s learn to live generously and with open hands when they surrender their fears, their needs and their lives to God's timing and His provision. When they are in a place of trusting in the sufficiency of Christ, they no longer are self-reliant in their efforts. They're not hoarding and accumulating out of a scarcity mindset, but they are sure and secure, surrendered to the Lord. So the key verse here is Luke 6:38, which says, "Give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you" (ESV).

Meredith Brock:
I have lots of Type 5s in my life.

Kaley Olson:
Me too.

Meredith Brock:
And so I have more of a question for you, Meredith Boggs.

Meredith Boggs:
Yeah.

Meredith Brock:
And that is: Out of that fear, that deep-seated fear that they have of not having enough …

Kaley Olson:
Mmm-hmm.

Meredith Boggs:
Mmm-hmm.

Meredith Brock:
… and like you said, it can be money, time or energy. That's the scarcity mindset.

Meredith Boggs:
Mmm-hmm.

Meredith Brock:
Do you typically see a Type 5 grasp for control? Is that the direction that they go in? Or does it really go more toward their grasping and chasing after the resources they're afraid they're not going to have enough of? I'm sure it probably presents itself differently. Not all Type 5s are the exact same, right?

Kaley Olson:
Mmm-hmm.

Meredith Brock:
I think, that's one of the things we have to learn about the Enneagram — that it presents itself very differently in each person. But what would you say is a consistent pattern that you do see in the Type 5?

Meredith Boggs:
That's a really good question. I think, with the Type 5s, if you ask a room full of fives, you'd probably get different answers. But I think it's probably more control — because fives are not hoarders. You're not going to walk in their house ... It's not going to be on Hoarders. They're not like that, but they do ... Type 5s have a limited reserve of energy when they wake up every day, and they allot it out so that they can get through their day. And when they get to the end of the day, it's gone, it's done.

Meredith, you’re a Type 8 — you can rally if something comes up that you need to deal with. You just take care of it; you find it in you. But fives don't have that. When they're done, they're done. And so, for them, the control piece emerges because they just become more controlling of their resources, of their time, of their energy, of their knowledge. And so rather than this rapid and rabid accumulation of more, it's more of living in a very controlled way so that they don't deplete these resources or tap into them too much.

Meredith Brock:
Uh-huh.

Kaley Olson:
Mmm-hmm.

Meredith Boggs:
Does that make sense?

Meredith Brock:
That does make sense.

Kaley Olson:
Uh-huh.

Meredith Brock:
And I would say I've sniffed that out with a few people in my life who identify as Enneagram 5s.

Kaley Olson:
Mmm-hmm.

Meredith Brock:
But this is new news for me.

Kaley Olson:
Yeah.

Meredith Brock:
This is a good way for me to process some of that inner working of the Type 5.

Kaley Olson:
Yeah.

Meredith Brock:
Super helpful.

Meredith Boggs:
Yeah. And fives tend to be minimalist in nature, in terms of material possessions but also just in what they need in relationships and emotionally from other people. And they would so much rather shrink their needs, per se, to match the supply. And they're going to match the supply instead of demanding more.

Kaley Olson:
Yeah.

Meredith Boggs:
And so that's another way that fives ... They have emotions, but it takes them a lot to express them. And so sometimes with Type 5s, it's like, "Where are you? What are you feeling?" Because you don't feel this frantic energy of accumulating. And sometimes with Type 8s, the energy of their control is very apparent. And with fives, you don't have that. And so it is a lot of the inner workings of getting in there, asking them, “What's going on?” What do they fear? What do they need? And when they talk about it, it's like, "Oh, OK, there it is." But you often don't sense it or feel it in relationship with them.

Meredith Brock:
That's good.

Kaley Olson:
That's great. One more comment on a Type 5 ...

Meredith Brock:
Yeah.

Kaley Olson:
I feel like God, when He created that personality type, gave them the biggest dose of intentionality out of anybody.

Meredith Brock:
Mmm.

Meredith Boggs:
Mmm-hmm.

Kaley Olson:
Because we're talking about control. And I think sometimes it's like, "OK, well, let's not just land here. What does this actually look like lived out?" I've never met more intentional people than I have with the people who are an Enneagram Type 5 in my life. Because thought goes into every single thing that they do, and they use everything that they have to its fullest extent. And, again, what a picture of the gospel and even how God is intentional in using everything in us. And I love that.

Meredith Brock:
It's beautiful.

Meredith Boggs:
It's beautiful.

Kaley Olson:
And I cannot wait to hear about the Type 6.

Meredith Boggs:
Yes. So, the Type 6 is known as the Loyalist. They struggle with fear. Fear, as we know, is one of the most primal human emotions. And it's one that is really helpful because it can save our lives. And fear is not bad — it's not a sin. But if we don't address our fear when it emerges and take it to the Lord in prayer and petition, it can become worry, which the Bible speaks to very clearly: We are not to worry. Worry is really natural to our human flesh, but it is unproductive. It's an unwise use of our energy and time. And so allowing our minds to be consumed with worry is really a subtle sign of disbelief in the sovereignty of God because we're failing to flex this muscle of faith that we have. So the key verse here is going to be Isaiah 41:10, which says, "Fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand" (ESV).

So the strength of Type 6s is faith. And I think that's really fitting to counterbalance that fear. When sixes have placed ... And it's a daily choice. It's once and for all when they choose to place their faith in Christ, but it's also a daily decision to put their confidence in the unchanging character of God. They really cement that foundation of faith, which they build their lives on. Our circumstances are constantly fluctuating, and they can be really frightening; they're ever changing. But this courage that they can tap into is a byproduct of consistently placing their faith and confidence in Christ, who is that sure and secure anchor for their souls. So 2 Corinthians 5:7 is the key verse here. And it says, "For we walk by faith, not by sight" (ESV).

Kaley Olson:
I have a question about sixes.

Meredith Boggs:
Yeah.

Kaley Olson:
Whenever … So I know that there are people who, like you said, when they choose to put their trust in something, they do it because they vetted it. And if you're their friend, you're their friend for life.

Meredith Boggs:
Yeah.

Kaley Olson:
And then with their trust in the Lord, it's a very intentional decision with them. And it's hard because trust is hard. So when we have a friend who is a Type 6 and something really hard happens in their life and they have maybe lost control or gone through something specifically where they might be questioning, like, God, I thought I trusted you with this?

Meredith Boggs:
Mmm-hmm.

Kaley Olson:
How do we help them, as friends, through that season? Can you explain?

Meredith Boggs:
That's a great question.

Kaley Olson:
Great question.

Meredith Boggs:
Yes, that's a really great question. One thing that really helps Type 6s is: They are verbal processors.

Kaley Olson:
OK.

Meredith Boggs:
And this is going to take patience for the people in their lives. But if you have a Type 6 in your life who you love, it's a joy to get to do this: letting them verbally process all of it, all of their fears, all the possible outcomes, every angle of it. Let them process it. Even the stuff that, as other types, we might be like, "OK, that is so far-fetched. That's just not going to happen." They really need that time and that space and that patience from people in their lives to process it. And I think sixes, a lot of times, can slip into this place of self-doubt. They don't think that they have the knowledge, the resources, the strength, the courage, to take action or do what needs to be done. And they do have it, but it is in that verbal processing with someone who they can trust that they find, Oh, actually, I do have the resources. Or maybe I don't in this moment, but God has them, and He is the source of them. And so I think, as friends with sixes in our lives, creating time and space for them to verbally process is really a way to love them.

Meredith Brock:
Mmm.

Kaley Olson:
That was helpful. Our technical engineer over here on the podcast is nodding away. Kalene is a Type 6, and she appreciates how you just told us we can help all the sixes out there. So thank you for that.

Meredith Boggs:
Good. OK, well, Type 7s — we'll jump in here. They are known as the Adventurers or the Enthusiasts. They struggle with gluttony. So we tend to associate gluttony with an overindulgence in food or other substances. But for sevens, this oftentimes looks like them keeping themselves busy and distracted with too many activities. The never-ending, constant pursuit of more that they're on in life. So, for sevens, when anything unpleasant or boring threatens their happy-go-lucky pace, they're quick to plan a new adventure, go out for a social gathering, or choose anything — that could be social media, food, alcohol, caretaking work — to avoid that pain. There is a really important piece where pain teaches us, and in the context of our sin, the consequences of our sin are oftentimes really painful. And we have to sit with those, and we have to grapple with them and wisely choose how we're going to move forward and how we're going to remedy and reconcile a situation that we've been part of.

But for Type 7s, a lot of times, if they're too busy trying to avoid those painful feelings, they plan activities, and they busy themselves with more in life to avoid that pain. They never do that work of repentance and reconciliation, which ultimately leads to healing and true comfort in Christ. They just numb and medicate that pain until ... It never really goes away, but it ultimately festers and becomes something bigger. And so that's a lot of times what gluttony looks like for them. Philippians 3:19 is the key verse here. And it says, "Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things" (ESV).

So, for Type 7s, their strength is wisdom. And this emerges when they learn to live life with a temperedness to their pace and their consumption. “Sobriety” is the word that pops up for sevens. It's the aim. And it's not necessarily in the traditional sense that we think of sobriety from alcohol or other substances. But it's a soberness of mind and spirit. And rather than augmenting the ordinary or amplifying the fun in order to avoid painful or natural consequences, they live wisely and soberly when they accept reality without attempting to alter it. And so this is really important on their journey of transformation and their walk with Christ as they grow in wisdom and discernment. The key verse here is Proverbs 19:20, and it says, "Listen to advice and accept instruction, that you may gain wisdom in the future" (ESV).

Kaley Olson:
Mmm.

Meredith Brock:
Well, I am a Type 7 — I wing toward a Type 7 really hard — and all of this is very convicting. I just want you to know, I mean, because 1,000% …

Kaley Olson:
Mmm-hmm.

Meredith Brock:
… when I experience some pain, whether that's because I'm concerned about something or someone, or because someone said something that was hurtful to me, I go into busy mode like it is nobody's business. I mean, I am cleaning my house, I'm taking a phone call at the same time, I'm making my children dinner …

Kaley Olson:
Uh-huh.

Meredith Brock:
And I just go, go, go, go, go, go, go.

Kaley Olson:
Uh-huh.

Meredith Brock:
I become a very disjointed version of myself that is very unhealthy, I would say.

Kaley Olson:
Uh-huh.

Meredith Brock:
So this is really resonating, Meredith Boggs. I get it. But [laughter] I'm also a really good time.

Kaley Olson:
Yeah, you are.

Meredith Boggs:
Yes.

Meredith Brock:
I am here to spice things up, bring the energy. But I think when I'm in a not-so-great place, I definitely tend to lean toward some of that gluttony. Not necessarily overeating or any of that stuff …

Meredith Boggs:
Yeah.

Meredith Brock:
But it's overly busy.

Meredith Boggs:
Yeah.

Kaley Olson:
Yeah.

Meredith Brock:
That’s where I go to.

Meredith Boggs:
I think Type 7s are another type similar to the Type 3s that are really esteemed and praised. Sevens are fun.

Kaley Olson:
Yeah.

Meredith Boggs:
They're party people.

Meredith Brock:
Mmm.

Meredith Boggs:
And so it's important, I think, if you have a seven who you're close with in life, to create that space and not put them in that position of doing all the parlor tricks but let them sit in their pain and be present, and [you can] be available to help them grapple with those things. This might be pain because of the consequences of their life, or this could just be a really painful life circumstance.

Meredith Brock:
Mmm-hmm.

Meredith Boggs:
And sometimes we do them a disservice because we love how happy-go-lucky they are, the fun people … They create, and they plan the best trips, and they plan the best parties, the best social gatherings. But when we fuel that and we esteem that in them, it's almost like we're taking away that time and that space that they might need to sit in some pain to do some really important reflection and work. So I think it's similar to the Type 3s in that our culture really loves and praises our Type 7s, but it can be a disservice to them.

Kaley Olson:
Mmm-hmm.

Meredith Brock:
Yeah, for sure. I have this saying … I have another Enneagram 7 friend, and usually when I make a really rash decision, I'll text her and say, "I think I just had a seven seizure." And almost always, it's always connected to ... Again, it's so praised by our culture because they're like, "Oh, you're so fun." But I recognize what I'm doing and that it's [inaudible 00:17:05]. When I am stressed out, I will plan a trip.

Meredith Boggs:
Yeah.

Meredith Brock:
It is like a go-to, and everyone's like, "Oh, that's so fun." But I'm like, "No, no, no, you don't understand. I'm avoiding my thing. I'm intentionally trying not to think about that thing that really has me stressed out and afraid. And so instead I'm going to plan something fun to look forward to."

Meredith Boggs:
Yes.

Meredith Brock:
So good. Bad. Maybe a little bit of both.

Meredith Boggs:
Well, and I think, too, the gluttony … That's different. Of course, Meredith, if you were dealing with something painful and you went home and downed a bottle of wine, people would be like, "Meredith, that's not great. Let's work on some other things." But you plan a trip, and they're like, "Oh, you're such a fun mom. You're so spontaneous." And so it's like … but they're the same thing.

Meredith Brock:
Coping mechanism.

Meredith Boggs:
Yes, they're medicating and helping you avoid, but one is praised, and then one's like, "Ooh …” Maybe something else.

Meredith Brock:
Yeah, that's right.

Meredith Boggs:
Yeah.

Meredith Brock:
That's right. All right, we're going in.

Kaley Olson:
She's ready for it.

Meredith Brock:
I'm ready. Type 8: Lay it on me.

Meredith Boggs:
Type 8 is known as the Challenger, and their struggle is lust. So we often think about this term as being sexual in nature, but for Type 8s, it's just really more of a general too-much-ness that they approach life with. It's this lust for power and control, and ultimately, it's an unwillingness to surrender to God. Eights are really passionate people; they’re go-getters, and they make things happen. But sometimes their unbridled passion leads them down pathways where their lust emerges, and they act out in ways that are unhelpful, sometimes unwise and destructive in their effort to obtain justice or bring truth or whatever their motivation is. So 1 Peter 2:11 is the key verse here. It says, "Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh which wage war against your soul."

So the strength of a Type 8 is truth. Eights are justice seekers. They speak the truth in the world. They have a way of ... They just bring a lot of energy when they walk into a room being really loud and boisterous, but they can also just step into a room, flip on the light switch, and expose the darkness without ever having to say anything. They are really the most powerful and effective when they choose to point with their truth instead of chopping with it in an unhelpful and destructive manner. And so that is when their passions are restrained and they're not living and acting out on lust. Truth really does emerge in a way that brings change to the world, and it ultimately brings glory to God, carrying out the Kingdom work that He is already doing in this world. And they get to be participants in that. So 2 Timothy 2:15 is the key verse here. It says, "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth" (ESV).

Meredith Brock:
Well, I'm not going to say anything because I am a very strong Enneagram 8. And Kaley over there is holding back her laughter.

Meredith Boggs:
Wow. You are explaining the Enneagram 8. I am dying, Kaley. I need to hear your response to this.

Kaley Olson:
OK, so Meredith Boggs said, "When a Type 8 enters a room, they flip on a light switch and they just bring the energy." You all … the way Meredith enters a room: She swings the door open, "Hey, everybody, how are you doing?" She just disrupts the somberness of meetings sometimes and asks all the fun questions because I know you're trying to —

Meredith Brock:
Bring some energy to the situation, people.

Kaley Olson:
But I also know... Do you want me to keep speaking for you?

Meredith Brock:
I love it. I love it.

Meredith Boggs:
Yes.

Kaley Olson:
What I've learned from you, as a Type 8 …

Meredith Brock:
I love it. Lay it on me.

Kaley Olson:
We've worked together for nine years.

Meredith Brock:
Mmm-hmm.

Kaley Olson:
You've helped me and seen me grow in these areas too — but I noticed over the last couple of years, the opportunities that you have had as a leader in the organization were presented to you, and you knew, I really don't know how to do this right now … And you've had to still pioneer and lead the way but be fully surrendered at the same time. And I think what I have liked seeing as you've done that is that, as a Type 8, you have done what most eights don't do: learn to let down your guard and say, "I just need to let you know that I'm still figuring this out too. Help me."

Meredith Brock:
Mmm-hmm.

Kaley Olson:
And I think that, for anybody who's not a Type 8, we can look at people who are in-control, leader type people and be intimidated … and be like, Well, they certainly have it figured out, and we don't really know how to help them as best as possible. But I think that's how people who are Enneagram 8s can help others: by letting down their guard, when appropriate, and saying, "Hey, I'm figuring this out too." And I think it helps everybody be compassionate toward that person, to recognize they're not the savior. They're just appointed for an assignment right now if they're in a leadership position. But the more vulnerable they can be and the more comfortable they are with that, I think, the better it is for everybody.

Meredith Brock:
Thanks, Kaley, for saying that.

Kaley Olson:
You're welcome.

Meredith Brock:
I will say this is such an example … and I think this is for every single type. I think with the Type 8, obviously there's so much intensity around our personalities and energy.

Kaley Olson:
Mmm-hmm.

Meredith Brock:
Meredith Boggs, you said that: I don't have to say anything, but when I walk into a room, people are like, "Oh my gosh, the leader is here." And literally I haven't said a word.

Kaley Olson:
Yup.

Meredith Brock:
I haven't said a thing.

Meredith Boggs:
Yeah.

Kaley Olson:
Mmm-hmm.

Meredith Brock:
Pre-Jesus, I used that energy for ... I wouldn't say “evil” — I wasn't out there creating a mafia or anything — but I used it to control situations for my benefit all the time.

Kaley Olson:
Mmm-hmm.

Meredith Boggs:
Mmm-hmm.

Meredith Brock:
To manipulate people, to get what I wanted.

Meredith Boggs:
Wow.

Meredith Brock:
And when I came to know Jesus and the Holy Spirit began to shape and form me, it has enabled me, [like Kaley said], to say, "I don't know what I'm doing. I need help." And that humility really comes from the Holy Spirit. And so with every single one of these … And please, you all, can I just pause a moment and just say: Please don't hear that as me saying, "I am so humble." Because I'm not. I have moments of humility, and praise Jesus for that change in my life and in my heart.

Meredith Boggs:
Right.

Kaley Olson:
Don't we all? Mmm-hmm.

Meredith Brock:
But I think the case for every single type is that without the Holy Spirit, you're going to lean into that weakness.

Kaley Olson:
Mmm-hmm.

Meredith Boggs:
Yeah.

Meredith Brock:
Because we don't have the power to change ourselves. Only the Holy Spirit can change the darkness of the human heart.

Kaley Olson:
Mmm-hmm.

Meredith Brock:
And so the thing I really do love about the Enneagram, that has helped me really see God's goodness to us by giving us the Holy Spirit, is that the Enneagram shows you the depravity of man without the Holy Spirit.

Meredith Boggs:
Yeah.

Meredith Brock:
Because you can see where each type would go if you didn't have the intervention of a gracious, kind God who sent His Son and then left us with the Holy Spirit to create regeneration in our hearts. And so here I am being an Enneagram 8, dominating. I'm sorry. Let's move on to the Type 9.

Meredith Boggs:
No, I love it. I mean, honestly, if we didn't have the Type 9, I'd be like, "Let's wrap it there because that was beautiful." But we're going to cover the Type 9. So to bring it home, a Type 9 is known as the Peacemaker or the Mediator. They struggle with sloth. So coming off of the Type 7 and Type 8, where we've talked about gluttony and lust, sloth might seem relatively benign compared to the overly destructive gluttony and lust, but it is really damaging. And the extent of it can be far-reaching. Sloth and indolence, especially when it comes to matters of your spiritual health, can be detrimental when the sloth and indolence is not addressed. So laziness in the spiritual disciplines, in your prayer time, time in the Word and in worship … It could be a lack of diligence in your job or general apathy toward household responsibilities. These are just a few ways that this struggle can present.

And with this struggle, ultimately it leads to Type 9s failing to take appropriate action. And Type 9s … a lot of people know them as being conflict averse. And they do — they fear conflict, whether it's internal or external conflict. And so what happens is: When they are in this place when their struggle is out there and it's present, this sloth, they really slip into this place of inaction, which ultimately can be really unloving if they're not willing to step up, set boundaries, say “no,” or speak truth when it could cause conflict. And so Ecclesiastes 10:18 speaks to this. It says, "Through sloth, a roof sinks in, and through indolence, the house leaks" (ESV).

So the strength of the Type 9 is love. And this true love — like some of the other struggles and strengths have paired well together — pairs beautifully with their struggle of sloth. It's when they're able to take action: That is when their love is on display. And a lot of times, it's costly for Type 9s. It does come with conflict, and it may not be an external conflict, but a lot of times it's internal for the nine, which takes a lot of their energy and a lot of their bandwidth. But this action, this love, this virtue, is evident in the lives of Type 9s when they're able to speak up, when they step out, when they set boundaries and act in a loving manner, even when that conflict is there.

And I think there's no better example, or more beautiful example, than what Christ did on the cross. And that was the ultimate act of love and sacrifice. But the conflict, the inner turmoil that you can read in the gospel accounts when He was in the garden pleading with God to take that cup away from Him … I can only imagine how much conflict God must have felt: I don't want to do this, but there's no other way. And Jesus, looking at the road ahead: I don't want to do this, but there is no other way. And I love My children too much not to act, not to love them in this way. And so nines have the example to display that love to the world when they're willing to step in and take action. So 1 John 3:18 is the key verse here. And it says, "Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth" (ESV).

Kaley Olson:
Meredith, I was thinking ... It's funny, I talk about Meredith, and Meredith Brock is looking at me across the table. This is just a confusing podcast sometimes.

Meredith Boggs:
It is.

Kaley Olson:
But I was thinking about some people in the past who we've had on our team at Proverbs, and currently, Proverbs 31 Ministries is an organization of a lot of Type 9s —

Meredith Brock:
A lot.

Kaley Olson:
Have you realized how many nines?

Meredith Brock:
Lots of nines here.

Kaley Olson:
And it's one of the most wonderful things in the world, but sometimes I've noticed in meeting situations, nines do tend to hold back their thoughts. Because I think there is a sense of being threatened, almost, maybe by people in the room who are a little bit more dominating, or maybe they need a little bit more time to process. And I think one of the best ways we can love a Type 9 is make space for them to speak out.

Meredith Boggs:
Yes.

Kaley Olson:
And even call out their ideas. Because sometimes, I think, if they're more likely to share something that's on their mind in a more comfortable setting — and you know it — then you, as a person who has a different personality than them, can be a catalyst for their ideas to come to the surface when they might have kept it to themselves for a long time. And so I think that's one way that we can love Enneagram 9s. I love nines.

Meredith Boggs:
Yes.

Kaley Olson:
So much.

Meredith Boggs:
Yes.

Kaley Olson:
Yeah.

Meredith Brock:
I literally love a nine. I'm married to a nine.

Kaley Olson:
I almost said that, but then I was like, "I'll let Meredith talk about Mack if she wants to."

Meredith Brock:
Yeah.

Kaley Olson:
Yeah.

Meredith Brock:
I've learned a lot from him, you all.

Meredith Boggs:
Mmm-hmm.

Meredith Brock:
He has ... Once again, I just see the way that the Holy Spirit uses people in our lives to …

Kaley Olson:
Mmm-hmm.

Meredith Brock:
… what's the word I'm looking for? Confront.

Kaley Olson:
Yeah.

Meredith Brock:
The sin patterns of each type.

Kaley Olson:
Mmm-hmm.

Meredith Brock:
And my husband has been, as an Enneagram 9, such a good balance to my Enneagram 8-ness.

Kaley Olson:
Mmm-hmm.

Meredith Boggs:
Yeah.

Meredith Brock:
To really say, "You don't have to do so much. You don't have to fight to stay alive, Mer." And it has been so good for me. So all of my best friends have been Type 9s. My boss is a nine. I hire nines.

Kaley Olson:
Sometimes.

Meredith Brock:
So obviously the peacefulness of the Type 9 … I'm very attracted to it.

Kaley Olson:
Yeah.

Meredith Brock:
Because I think it helps me find my footing and my grounding.

Meredith Boggs:
Mmm-hmm.

Meredith Brock:
So we love you Enneagram 9s. We need you.

Kaley Olson:
Yeah.

Meredith Brock:
We need your voices. We're thankful for you.

Meredith Boggs:
Yes.

Kaley Olson:
Yeah, yeah.

Meredith Boggs:
Yes.

Kaley Olson:
This was great, Meredith Boggs. Thank you for coming on the show. I didn't know if there was something that you wanted to say to conclude all the nine adventures that we have been on today.

Meredith Boggs:
Yeah, thank you for having me. I think, just to tie it all together: I think understanding our struggles and strengths goes back to that question, "Can Christians use the Enneagram?"

Meredith Brock:
Mmm-hmm.

Meredith Boggs:
I think [the answer is] yes. And understanding your struggles and strengths is a part of this journey of transformation.

Meredith Brock:
Mmm-hmm.

Meredith Boggs:
And it's one that we walk our whole lives. Even hearing Meredith talk with Kaley, I love hearing y'all call things out on each other in your professional relationship of nine years. You can see that transformation in the lives of the people around you and in the other types, having Type 9s, having Type 3s, Type 7s, Type 2s, Type 5s in our lives … They help transform us into the likeness of Christ too. It's the body of Christ, and transformation is nonlinear. It is messy. But I love what Paul writes in Philippians 1:6, “that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion" (ESV). And so even on the days where we feel really stuck in our struggles and we feel like this journey of transformation is taking just ... it is painful and it is taking so long, we have that promise that He began this good work in us, and He will bring it to completion.

Kaley Olson:
Mmm.

Meredith Brock:
Hmm. So good, so good. I’m grateful for this conversation, grateful for the time that you've spent with us today, Meredith Boggs. Listeners, if you have found this teaching helpful, we want to get you guys connected with Meredith Boggs. Obviously, she is just a fountain of wisdom and insight, so you can find her on Instagram @meredithwboggs, B-O-G-G-S. But also we want to encourage you … Like I said at the top of this episode, she's got a new book coming out, called The Journey Home: A Biblical Guide to Using the Enneagram to Deepen Your Faith and Relationships. So maybe if this conversation today has sparked some ideas and some things that you want to explore, this is a great resource for you. We've linked it for you in our show notes at proverbs31.org/listen.

Kaley Olson:
And if you're wondering what to listen to next, be sure to check out other shows in The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast Network, like Therapy & Theology hosted by Lysa TerKeurst, which I feel like pairs really well with this episode that we just recorded today.

Meredith Brock:
It really does. It's a good one.

Kaley Olson:
Really great show. Or the Encouragement for Today Podcast. I thank you so much for joining us. We say this all the time here, but at Proverbs 31 Ministries, we believe when you know the Truth and live the Truth, it changes everything.