The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast

Meredith Brock:
Well, hello, friends. Thanks for tuning in to The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast, where we share biblical Truth for any girl in any season. I'm your host, Meredith Brock, and I am here with my co-host, Kaley Olson.

Kaley Olson:
Hey, Meredith. Today we are about to hear a really great conversation with our president [of Proverbs 31 Ministries], Lysa TerKeurst, and pastor Craig Groeschel about habits, which I know is fun for us to talk about. So for fun, let's lighten the mood here since we're friends, Meredith. We've known each other for a long time. I think we should share a weird habit that we have as we transition [to the next part of the podcast]. OK, I'll go first.

Meredith Brock:
OK, you go first.

Kaley Olson:
You know me as a very efficient person, and so I don't think that this is necessarily a habit, but one thing that I try to do is I try to weave efficiency into everything, and sometimes I'll combine weird tasks. Like I will take my toothbrush into the shower so that I can knock out two birds with one stone. Or in my nighttime routine, I try to cut down on as many steps as possible or do them collectively so that I can get in the bed faster, but I'm not doing one thing at a time.

Meredith Brock:
Kaley, as a person who respects … productivity, right now you're speaking my love language. I would say a weird habit that I have is pretty much every single night, I tell myself, I'm not going to eat a lot of tortilla chips before bed. So I'm not going to get a bowl, and I'm not going to get a bag, of tortilla chips. I'm just going to have a handful of tortilla chips. Guys, I just —

Kaley Olson:
[Laughter.] I'm pretty sure that's actually a serving size though. It's just, like, five.

Meredith Brock:
Yeah. But I can double up in both hands. [Laughter.] How many tortilla chips? ... I just want everybody to know that I have a habit of eating tortilla chips every single night before I go to bed, and I tell … I go through this inner dialogue every night before I go to bed that I'm like, I'm just going to have a handful of tortilla chips. And most of the time, it ends up being two and three handfuls of tortilla chips. But I’ve got to have my handful — I’ve got to have my tortilla chips before I go to sleep.

Kaley Olson:
I know you'll have a great day in the office, and it's because you had your —

Meredith Brock:
Tortilla chips before I went to bed.

Kaley Olson:
It's just tortilla chips, or is it, like, Doritos?

Meredith Brock:
No, I have a very specific kind of tortilla chips. They are just plain tortilla chips, but they are the thin and crispy restaurant-style ones.

Kaley Olson:
Yes ma'am. Yes ma'am.

Meredith Brock:
I don't know what they put on those, but it's like crack for me.

Kaley Olson:
It's very good. It's like it's air —

Meredith Brock:
Extra salt. And they're super crispy. Oh, I would like to have a handful right now.

Kaley Olson:
I really like the direction that this conversation is going. And afterwards we'll go to the grocery store and pick you up some —

Meredith Brock:
Yes, please.

Kaley Olson:
— tortilla chips.

Meredith Brock:
Yes, please.

Kaley Olson:
Well, we're talking about habits, and this was fun, but I know that some habits are hard to break, and we've all got things that we do that maybe just aren't super beneficial for us. Well, if you're finding yourself in that situation right now, I've got good news for you — because I know I've thought, I've tried, and it's just not possible to change. And if you’ve thought that same thing, you're about to hear a conversation between our president, Lysa, and pastor Craig Groeschel of Life Church in Oklahoma City, host of the well-known Craig Groeschel Leadership Podcast. You're going to hear Lysa ask Craig all the questions we know that you want answers on in relation to habits, like what to do when you're stuck, how to prioritize what's most important, and how to make a change that's simple rather than overwhelming.

Meredith Brock:
And in the meantime, if you're wanting to go ahead and grab some resources on creating habits that last, be sure to check out Craig's book The Power to Change. It's linked in the show notes. And if you want an easy way to stay accountable to a new habit you want to create after you listen to this episode, then we've linked a free resource from Proverbs 31 in the show notes, titled “31 Days To Form a New Habit.” We can't wait for you to listen to Lysa and Craig's conversation, so let's turn it over to the experts.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Hi, pastor Craig. I am so excited about our topic today because I have big questions, and I know you always have amazing answers. So welcome, pastor Craig Groeschel.

Craig Groeschel:
Lysa, it's great to be back with you. I always, always enjoy our time together.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Well, I do too. And we do get to spend some fun time together doing ministry and other things. I love your wife, Amy, and your family, and so I know you on a personal level as well, and so it's just terrific to have you here today. And it's so terrific to get to spend some time talking about your new book, The Power to Change.

Craig Groeschel:
Thank you.

Lysa TerKeurst:
And I'm going to actually hold the book up. I wish we had a mirrored copy so that everyone could see a mirrored copy. If you're joining by just listening today, it's an awesome orange cover that has big, bold, white letters: The Power to Change by Craig Groeschel. Who is, by the way, a New York Times bestselling author and, like I said before, pastor of Life Church. So let's just jump right in. What motivated you to write this book?

Craig Groeschel:
So interestingly enough, Lysa, the theme of this book, I think, is — maybe, perhaps — the most core theme to my life. It's really all about choosing discipline, and I wanted to write a book on discipline, but the publisher said, "Nobody wants to hear about discipline." So we wrote about The Power to Change, which really talks about how we create the right habits and the right disciplines in our lives to bring about the right outcomes. I think a lot of times we get so focused on the outcome — this is what I want to do or who I want to become — that we don't know how to get there, and we get really frustrated. So the book is about how to create the right inputs in our lives that will bring about the God-honoring outcomes.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Because I know for me … I'm just going to make a couple of confessions on this podcast, if that's OK.

Craig Groeschel:
Confess away, please.

Lysa TerKeurst:
OK. I like the thought of change, but when it comes down to breaking it down into the daily disciplines and new habits that I need to form to create lasting change, sometimes I get highly unmotivated. So I’m highly motivated [in that I] want the change but unmotivated in creating what's necessary to bring about the change. So what do you say to people who say, "I want change, but I just don't know that I can do this"?

Craig Groeschel:
Well, I think that that's very common for all of us. It's really, really easy to want a specific outcome or change in our lives, but the work to get there can be very, very intimidating. And so what I would say first of all is that change is possible, that all things are possible with God, that the power of the gospel at the heart of it is it changes lives. So change is possible.

And then what I would do is really try to start encouraging people on some really, really small, simple changes that a lot of times, Lysa, people look at … They might look at your life and say, "I want what Lysa has. She's had probably had to do all these big, big things." And you would actually say, “No.” Any kind of God-honoring success you have is a result of small, consistent actions that bring about the big results. I always say, “It's the small things that no one sees that bring about the big results that everybody wants.”

And so I would break it down, and we can talk about really how to do it — to break down your life into the small, consistent habits that will bring about the big changes. So it is possible, and it doesn't have to be big, big changes; it can be small changes over time that bring about really big differences in your life.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah. So I resonate so much with what you're saying because when someone ever says to me, like, "Oh, how does it feel to experience such overnight success?" … I'm like, "Yes, overnight success. Thirty years in the making."

Craig Groeschel:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Lysa TerKeurst:
I've been doing this a long time, and I know you have as well. And so, many times, what I say to people, especially when they ask me questions about ministry, is I say it was a daily act of obedience. I realized early on that my job is to be obedient to God with what's in front of me, and God's job is everything else. And I think that that answer is very true to what I experience. And there were also many decisions that I made along the way that were really wise decisions. So what would you say when someone's wanting to create a change in their life? Are there some decisions that they need to make first in order to start the process of healthier habits and new disciplines?

Craig Groeschel:
One hundred percent. So here's what tends to happen: People will say, "I want to be more organized" or "I want to be healthier" or "I want to be a better parent" or "be more present" or whatever. And they start with the kind of exterior or outside goal. What I would say, Lysa, is we have to start with the core reasons why we behave the way that we do. And if you think about it, if we were to ask your podcast community — “Why do you do what you do?” — there would be several, kind of, what I call secondary reasons. People do what they do to be liked or to feel responsible or maybe to be God-honoring. But when we take away all the secondary reasons, the primary reason that people do what they do is this: You do what you do because of what you think of you.

If you think of yourself as organized, you tend to behave like someone who's organized. If you think of yourself as someone who procrastinates, you become someone who procrastinates. So identity drives behavior. So what I would do is I would start not with the behavior (“How do I want to behave?”), but I would start with the identity and say, “Who do you want to become? Who is it that you want to be?”

And we want to start with a God-honoring identity. And then when we start to change what we think of ourselves … If you want to change what you do, change what you think of you, right? We're not going to see ourselves as what someone else says we are or even as our own negative voices say we are, but we're going to try to see ourselves as God says we are or how He sees us — and change our identity.

Once we start to see ourselves as [God does], we can name it: This is who I want to become. This is the type of person that I want to be. Then we're going to ask, What kind of behaviors does that kind of person have? And we're going to look at what kinds of habits we want to start to become that type of person. And what kinds of habits do we want to stop? But it all starts with identity. Who do you want to be?

Let's talk about who before do. And once we identify who, the do will start to overflow more naturally.

Lysa TerKeurst:
I like that so much because I think sometimes — here's another confession by me — I put limitations on myself that I don't even realize affect my behavior more than I've given them credit for. For example …

Craig Groeschel:
We all do that. I think everybody does that. It's our own inner insecurities that will often rob us of any kind of real potential.

Lysa TerKeurst:
So here are a couple examples in my life. I'll start with something super small, but actually it creates a lot of drama in my life. A lot. But I just constantly lose my cell phone. And, I mean, it's a problem. People in my life know. They say whenever we leave somewhere … My people know to ask Lysa if she has her phone.

Craig Groeschel:
How funny.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Because chances are I will have forgotten it. And so I think I've even bought into this thing. It's like, "Yeah, I'm just the person who always loses her cell phone." But I wonder how much of it is that my thinking has been so limited because I say that — it hasn't even occurred to me to make a change or to do different habits in my life to create a change. I'm just navigating around the dysfunction of losing my phone all the time.

And so that's a small example, but then there are much bigger examples in our lives where we put limitations on ourselves and we label ourselves: This is just how I am. I like the one where you said that if someone says they want to be a more organized person … Well, I've heard people say before, "Well, I'm just not that organized." And it's like, yeah, you may not be right now, but what could happen if you change that thinking?

So what would you say to someone who just feels stuck?

Craig Groeschel:
Well, I'd say, again, that's fairly common. And back to your illustration … I think No. 1, we can probably find several solutions to help you find your cell phone. And we might even work on that together because I think that's a solvable problem. But I think that everybody feels stuck at one time or another. We feel like, This is just the way that I am, and I can't change. So if we start to identify what type of a person we want to become — who do we want to be? — then we ask ourselves this: Based on who I want to become, what's one habit that I need to create, or what's one behavior that I want to start?

And what's so amazing is … With your cell phone, let's just say you created a checklist before you left somewhere. You're going to say, every time, Do I have my cell phone? Because now you're the type of person who never loses her cell phone. And if you create that one behavior that moves in that direction, then what happens is, as James Clear says, you start creating many votes — little, small votes — toward the type of person you want to become. Your actions start to confirm your identity: I'm the type of person who never leaves her cell phone. And so before you leave, you say, Do I have my cell phone? You get it, and you say, Oh, I'm the type of person who never [leaves] it.

So what we're going to do is, if we feel stuck and change is way too far off in the distance, we're going to take really small, really intentional steps in that direction. And over time, it can be a big change.

I'll give you a personal example. Sometimes people say, like, "Hey, Craig, you're a very disciplined person." I would say that naturally I am not at all. I like to eat junk food. I like to sleep in. I like to take shortcuts.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Really?

Craig Groeschel:
A thousand percent. I love donuts, chocolate cake, cinnamon rolls, sweet tea, chips … the list goes on and on and on. So by nature, I don't have good discipline, but I decided years ago to do a really small thing. And in the book The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg, he talks about keystone habits, little habits that create cascading positive habits. I decided — it's kind of funny — just to start flossing [my teeth]. Because I hate flossing, but by doing one thing a day that I don't like, I tell myself, OK, I'm choosing to do this. I'm choosing to be disciplined. I'm choosing to do something that I don't want to do. And that one little discipline creates all sorts of other positive disciplines in my life.

The way I joke about it, at least, is I'll say, "Because I floss, I say I'm disciplined — and that helps me to eat better, go to bed early, get up early, do my version Bible plan, get into the office early, be productive, come home early, see Amy, and have an amazing life." Versus if I didn't, I would think, OK, I'm not disciplined. I don't eat well. I stay up too late. I sleep in. I don't do my Bible study. I get in late. I'm a jerk all day. I'm running late coming home. I get pulled over by a police officer. I don't want to get a ticket, so I try to outrun them. I end up in jail, all because I didn't floss.

So obviously [that’s] a little bit of an exaggeration, but [it’s] not too far from the truth that one small behavior reinforces the positive identity that I'm disciplined, and that starts creating other positive traits. So that's why I say don't be discouraged. You can do something really, really small in the right direction based on who you want to become. What one new habit do you need to start? And you'll be shocked at how quickly you can change and never lose your cell phone again.

Lysa TerKeurst:
I know that would be a full-on miracle. That would be truly miraculous. It's so bad. I just went on a bus trip, like a bus tour across the United States, and the number of times I left my cell phone, lost my cell phone, or watched the Uber driving down the highway because I was tracking my cell phone and realized I'm on the bus, and there goes my cell phone ... And it seems like something so small and so silly, but the drama that it creates is enormous. So I like the example you just gave about flossing your teeth, and if you play it all the way out, it's helping you not get arrested. So that may seem dramatic, but I do think it's true.

Do you think that some of us are just not thinking about playing it all the way out when we're thinking about daily habits? They seem hard to create, but if we do take the time and play it all the way out with those habits: This can happen without those habits … This can happen … Talk to me about that.

Craig Groeschel:
Well, there's a great book called The Compound Effect by Darren Hardy. And basically he shows how really small behaviors in any direction create massive change. And there was one example in there, and I hate to talk about weight because weight can be sensitive — we really are concerned about health — but he shows in the book how 125 calories a day, one way or the other, creates a real compound effect. And that could be … What is that? A glass of wine or maybe a half of a candy bar or whatever, something really small. And if someone adds just 125 calories over a 27-month period with no other changes, that person gains 33.5 pounds — with just 125 extra calories a day. And the flip side is if someone eliminates that very thing and decreases (though nothing else changes) by 125 calories, it becomes a 33.5-pound drop. And so there's literally a 67-pound swing based on something as small as a portion of a candy bar a day.
And that, to me, is … Again, I don't want to harp on weight or calories, but use that as an example of thinking about what would be different if you prayed with your spouse every day. How could that create changes in your marriage? Or think about if you spent less than you make every day and invested just $10 a week into a long-term investment. And so if we can make really, really small changes over time, they can create a massive difference.

For example, I've been married for 31 years to Amy. If someone looks on and says, "You guys have a really good marriage. Why is that?” I could probably list four or five very small things that we've worked to consistently have in our marriage that, over time, create something special. And without those four or five things, we could be in an entirely different place. It's not the few big things you do — it’s the small, consistent, right things you do over time that bring about really, really special results.

Lysa TerKeurst:
I love that. So tell me: What are those four or five things? Or just name four or five things that you and Amy consistently do that you think are really helping to improve your relationship and keep it growing.

Craig Groeschel:
Well, again, what I'm going to tell you is these things are true — I promise you — but they all seem really small. One of the things that we do is we pray together. And we don't pray long, but here's the thing: If we pray together, do you think that we can fight and pray together? The answer is no. We have to work through issues to pray together. Do you think that it would be easy to have a secret sin going on and have intimate spiritual time together? The answer is no. And so it forces you to have a real God-honoring, God-submitted heart of purity in order to pray together. So it’s something small that creates something really, really big; it creates spiritual intimacy, and it helps us work through things.

Another little-bitty thing is that we do walks together. And this wouldn't necessarily be important to someone else, but to us, with six children and a lot of moving parts, it's about the only guarded time we have to really process things. And so Amy loves face-to-face time. I have a more difficult time having long, intimate, face-to-face talks, but when we're side by side doing something out in nature, I get real, real open. And so we work through things that way.
We have had date nights for years and years and years, and we had one season where we thought, Our marriage is good — we don't need a date night. And suddenly our marriage wasn't as good anymore.

And then I think just the … We're pastors, but we're not just pastors; we're Christians. We worship together, meaning we're in a small group and we're in the church together.
And I'd say if you take those little things — and they wouldn't be the same for everybody, but those little things — they keep us spiritually humble, spiritually repentant, spiritually intimate, relationally close, prioritizing each other, not being child-centered in our marriage, having our relationship grounded on Christ, working through issues. The presence of those four or five things creates a really good marriage. The absence of those things could create an entirely different scenario.

Lysa TerKeurst:
That's really good. I love those suggestions because none of them feel massive.

Craig Groeschel:
No.

Lysa TerKeurst:
If you say to someone, "You need to work on your relationship," that feels so massive. It's like, Well, where do we even start? There's communication, there's conflict, there's so many different aspects of working on a relationship … but what I hear you saying is just to work on it daily. Pick some of those small things that are good daily habits that you can implement, and then, over time, change will happen.

Yes. I really like, actually, the weight example because I had bought into the lie when I hit 50 [years old] that I just thought, Well, after 50, it's just not really possible to lose weight or get healthy. There were changes happening just with hormones and everything in my body, and so I kind of bought this lie of just settling in and just accepting the weight. And obviously my primary goal is to be healthy, but I knew that I had gained weight and that I wasn't feeling healthy. I just wasn't. And so I decided to go after portion control. Now, I've done a ton of different diets over my life, lots of different eating plans, lots of different exercise plans and eating plans, and I think they're good — they're really good. But what I discovered is portion control for me was the key to having that compounding effect that you were talking about and just reducing a certain number of calories a day and giving up something that really wasn't necessary and wasn't healthy for me. It made a massive difference. And in one year's time, I lost over 50 pounds.

So I went from kind of believing, This is where I'm at and I'll be here forever, to making a change, which was a very daily change. And it didn't seem that massive, but it really did help in a tremendously massive way. And I now have so much more energy. I'm better equipped to run at the pace that my ministry life requires, and I just in general feel better about myself. Now, that's not to say I'm standing in front of the mirror body-shaming myself, and I'm not shaming someone else, but for me, that mathematical equation of doing something small every single day did add up to a big, massive change.

Craig Groeschel:
That's so powerful. And I would guess, Lysa, that not only did it give you more energy to do the ministry, but I'm guessing that it had compounding positive effects in other areas of your life. For example, No. 1, you proved to yourself that you could do something that you didn't think you could do. And so that creates confidence. And there may be some other area of your life, I'm guessing, where you didn't think you could accomplish [something], and that momentum in the area of your physical health gave you the confidence to attack something else.

And that's what we're looking for. Whatever age we are, whatever relationship we're in, we want to do the right things, the right, small things at that season, to be the best version of who God created us to be. And if you’re in your 50s, if you’re in your 70s, if you’re in your 20s — whatever it is — we're going to do the right things to become who it is that God wants us to become. And I applaud you for that, [Lysa,] and I know that that's not just something that impacted your health, but I promise you your ministry's better because of it. Your relationships are better because you've got momentum in other areas of life because you found a God-honoring discipline in one area.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah, I agree with that. So are there some changes that you recommend people start with if they're coming to you and saying, "OK, pastor Craig, I want to be a healthier person” or “I want to be a happier person"? Are there some basic changes you see across the board that people need to consider first? Because I think a lot of us could change a lot of things about ourselves. So to prevent overwhelm happening, what would you say are good places to start?

Craig Groeschel:
So that's a great question. I've got a lot to say about it. I'll try to keep it short. The first thing I would say is this: A lot of times, we're tending to think about all change as practical. What I would do is I would encourage people to think of change as spiritual. We're not just after behavior modification. What we're after is spiritual transformation. Because if we simply change a behavior without changing our hearts, the behavior tends to come back. We see that all the time.

Lysa TerKeurst:
That's right.

Craig Groeschel:
We do good for 30 days, and then we fall back into the old pattern. So I would say let's start, as often as we can, not with behavior modification but with saying we truly want spiritual transformation.

So God's going to change our hearts. Once we start there, then what I would do is I would try to help people by saying, "OK, who do you want to become?" Remember we're starting with who before do. We're starting with identity before behavior.

Then I would move to real specific questions, and everybody's answer would be different, but I would ask you: “Based on who you want to become, what one habit do you need to start? Or based on who you want to become, what one habit do you need to break?” And the reason I say “one” is because most people try to change five things, and nobody can change five things at once. But anybody can change one thing. So if you change one thing, you're creating positive momentum.

Then I teach on a very different mindset that I believe is really rooted in Scripture. The Apostle Paul said, "Train yourself for godliness" (1 Timothy 4:7, ESV). He said, "I train my body to do what it should." Most people, when they're hoping to change, they're just trying to change. And I would say to those people: Stop trying to change. If you're trying … What does it mean to be trying? Trying is kind of like a half-hearted attempt where you know you might not succeed, and you're already giving yourself an excuse to fail. "I'm trying, but I may not make it."

What we're doing is we're not trying, but we're in training. Totally different mindset. If you're in training, you have a game plan. You're going to show up. You may not always have a great training day, and you may even skip a day, or you may even blow your training session. But when you're training, you're actually becoming more of what you already are. I'm training to get better at what I am. I'm not trying to become something, but I'm in training.

So, Lysa, you are the type of person who never loses her cell phone. And what does a person like that do? I don't know, but there's one thing that type of person does or one thing they don't do, and you're going to name what that is. And then you're not trying not to lose your cell phone. You're in training. Every day, you’ve got a plan. Before you leave anywhere: Do I have my cell phone? Or whatever it is, or there's probably some technology that can solve that problem immediately for you if you get the device that tracks it, but that would be way too easy …

But we have our identity. We know what one thing we want to start or one thing we want to stop. And we're not trying — we're in training, and God is spiritually transforming our hearts, and change is possible. Whatever it is that you think you can't change, with God's help, with His power, you can change.

Lysa TerKeurst:
I like that so much because I would imagine when someone's trying to make a change in their life that requires them to have a different mindset and different daily habits, then I think other people could sometimes be resistant to that because it may affect them. For example, if someone says they want to get healthier, then their spouse is frustrated, like, "Wait, no, we go out and eat pizza every Thursday night, and now you're saying you want to go get grilled chicken salads." And the spouse may be like, "No, this is too complicated." But instead of saying, "I'm trying to do this,” [we can say] “I'm in training to do this," and I think that could help other people even have a different mindset about the changes that we are making that may affect them as well.

Craig Groeschel:
Right. That's a good point. And they can be more supportive — and that's a whole other side point, but the people we're around matter so, so, so much, and if we're around … If the majority of the people we're around have really different habits, that would be dangerous to us. We might want to love them but not spend as much time with them. We might need to redefine the relationships. Obviously, if you're married, you don't just redefine that one because, you know, you are married. But sometimes if spouses are going in different ways, if we can help our spouse see why we're going this way, then he or she can be more supportive rather than antagonistic toward it. And a lot of times what will happen is when one spouse makes a positive change and does it right, the other one will come along as well, and then you'll see two people moving in the same direction, and that can get really special because you become a support for each other rather than an opposition toward that goal.

Lysa TerKeurst:
I love that. OK, two last questions.

Craig Groeschel:
Yes.

Lysa TerKeurst:
No. 1: What are some of the most important habits that you've developed to invest wisely in your six kids? They have now multiplied because so many of them are married, and now you have grandkids. Same with me.

Craig Groeschel:
Yes. So with my six kids, it's a really big question. A couple things that are … It's more of a mindset, but one thing is I study how they connect. There are six of them, and they all connect in a different way. Katie, my oldest, will be real intimate and open in the written word. Mandy likes to talk, but there's only certain times of the day [when] she likes to talk. Anna likes to talk about what's going on in her world, and I have to know what's going on in her world. Sam will talk anytime, anywhere, anytime, anywhere. With Steven, you have to do — I have to play catch with him or do some kind of side-by-side action for a long period of time before he opens up. Then he won't stop. With Joy, it's always going to be in her moment, in her time. And so what I do is, with six kids, I know how they connect, and I very intentionally look for opportunities to connect with them in those ways.

Then what I do is … I have created midway through my parenting a rule that I try to live by, and that is when they ask me to do something … A lot of times, I'll go a long time and none of them will ask me to do anything — but if they ask me, "Can you do something or do you want to do something?" if it's all humanly possible, I'm going to drop everything I can and engage in that moment. Obviously, you may not do that when they're 3 years old, but when they get older and you're talking with teenagers and such … I want to be completely available when they initiate, to try to meet that moment. Because if I don't, those moments come and they go.

The biggest goal with them is to lead with grace, grace, grace, grace, grace, grace — and always communicate truth. In a lot of Christians’ homes, sometimes it's more truth than grace, and truth without grace tends to lead to rebellion. Grace without truth tends to lead to license. So what I want to do is I want to keep the conversation open, do everything I can to have them talking, be available to them, and then always lead with grace, and support grace with truth. And I'm super thankful — I can't take credit for it at all, but the six of them are actively serving Jesus in the Church by the grace of God and the help of a good church, good community, and a lot of answered prayers that they're on the right track. And I'm super thankful for that. That doesn't tend to happen naturally. It takes a lot of intentionality and a lot of grace.

Lysa TerKeurst:
I think there's so much power in consistency. Because when you talk about a topic as big as parenting or a topic as big as marriage, it could be easy to say, "Well, I do 15 things." And it's like, "But can you consistently do 15 things with six kids? Not really." But I love that you've boiled it down to what you have determined are two really important things. And I absolutely love your suggestion. My mantra in parenting was: “Keep them talking.”

Craig Groeschel:
Yes, yes, yes.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Just keep them talking — because sometimes people are raised [with parents who] say "don't talk back to me" or "because I said so." And I think that there is a definite good part of that in terms of how we want to teach our kids to be respectful, but I wanted to have respectful kids who at the same time wanted to keep the conversation going. And so my big thing was keep them talking —

Craig Groeschel:
I agree.

Lysa TerKeurst:
— and you know what I had to do? I had to train my facial expressions not to have a reaction that would shut the conversation down. So I trained my face to just be like, “That's interesting. Tell me more about that. Help me understand." Inside, I may be freaking out: Don't you dare think that way! But I think keeping them talking about it is kind of similar to what you said.

Craig Groeschel:
I think that's brilliant. Yes.

Lysa TerKeurst:
So I love that. OK. As we wrap up, is there anything that you haven't shared about the book that you'd want to share? Or what is your favorite part of the book?

Craig Groeschel:
I would say my favorite part of the book is at the end where we just talk about God's part in it. A lot of times we really, really focus on, I have to do this, and this is going to be hard, and I'm not going to be able to do it. But the reality is that God's power, His grace, is absolutely, completely with you in whatever area right now you feel like you can't change. That's an area where you're weak. And the amazing thing is that God's strength is absolutely available and is made perfect in your weakness.

And I know I'm kind of joking about the phone, but I'm really not because I know if you lose your phone on a trip, it is a big, big, big deal. And so I would — I'm, like, dead serious — almost want to talk to you about this off camera and solve this once and for all. You're Lysa TerKeurst, the type of person who doesn't lose her phone. And because you're that type of person, what one new habit do you need to create, or what one thing do you need to change? And let's just come up with whatever that is. And then you're not trying to be this kind of person, but you're in training to be this [person]. And then the reality is God's going to meet you where you are in this weakness, and it'll become a strength.

And I literally believe you could have [a moment where you realize,] I've gone two years and never lost my phone — because that's the type of person you are. Your ministry role is too important, your impact in this world is too significant, to be stopped by something as small as a lost phone.

Lysa TerKeurst:
I agree. I need you to hold me accountable. So you can —

Craig Groeschel:
We all need to hold you accountable. This is a solvable problem for Lysa TerKeurst with all that you have going on! And just for fun, if you can give me now what one thing you need to do or what you need to stop — can you give me one thing? Let's just start with one thing, just for fun.

Lysa TerKeurst:
OK. I think what I need to do regarding the cell phone is I need to, when I put it down, say out loud, "I am putting my phone on my dresser."

Craig Groeschel:
OK, there you go.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Or if I get in an Uber: "I am putting my phone in my purse." And I think if I say it out loud, it'll clue my brain to engage. Because I think what happens is my brain is thinking of 15 other different things, and so my cell phone just becomes something that I'll just set down and I'm not even paying attention. And that's a big reason why I'm losing it.

Craig Groeschel:
Done. I got my private pilot's license last year, and right now I'm training for my instrument rating, and I'm almost finished with it. And we say everything out loud. Every checklist, everything that we're doing, we say out loud because it brings to the front of your consciousness what you're doing. And what happens is we catch ourselves making mistakes or forgetting something — by saying things out loud. That's brilliant. That's part of your life now. That's one habit that you need to create.

When you do that, that's going to reinforce your identity, that you're the type of person who doesn't lose her phone, and you're going to eliminate a lot of stress. You're not trying to do that. You're in training, and God's going to meet you in it, truly.

And does God really care about something that small? He actually does because that creates big drama in your life that's unnecessary, that's going to slow you down from creating a bigger impact. And so He's going to meet you in that.

I would just declare right now to the Lysa TerKeurst podcast community: We're going places. You’ve got the power to change and create the habits that matter most in your life. And so I am going to, as your friend and partner in cell phone identification, check back up with you, and we're going to crush this one.

Lysa TerKeurst:
That is great. And all the people who do life with me said “amen” for sure!

Craig Groeschel:
Let's do it.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Well, as we wrap up, thank you for that. By the way, I do think it does seem like a small thing, but it's not a small thing.

Craig Groeschel:
Promise me you'll do that. Just promise me you'll do that one little thing.

Lysa TerKeurst:
I will.

Craig Groeschel:
You watch.

Lysa TerKeurst:
I will.

Craig Groeschel:
Here you go. OK.

Lysa TerKeurst:
OK. Let me share it with everyone one more time: The Power to Change. Why I love this book is because sometimes when I'm reading a book that is more business oriented or more personal development oriented, sometimes I gravitate toward the popular books that address this from a psychological standpoint or a business standpoint or whatever. And then I have to choose: OK, do I want to read a Christian book, or do I want to read a development book? But I love the fact that we get it all with you. You are an incredible leader, and you are solid in your faith.

Craig Groeschel:
Thank you.

Lysa TerKeurst:
And whether you're running a household, whether you are in charge of a committee, whether you are just wanting to improve yourself, or certainly if you are running an organization, I recommend The Power to Change. And I love the subtitle too: Mastering the Habits That Matter Most. I think it's a crucial book for all of us to read. Let's make this the year that we make some of those changes that we all have said we wanted to make, but we just haven't activated those changes yet. So The Power to Change —pastor Craig Groeschel, thank you. Amazing conversation today and a good challenge. So I receive your challenge.

Craig Groeschel:
Lysa, thanks so much. And I'm cheering you on. Congratulations on the progress in your health, and I just love having a good friend who never loses her phone.

Lysa TerKeurst:
And I love being the person now who never loses her phone.

Craig Groeschel:
Thanks for having me on.

Lysa TerKeurst:
So right now, I am taking my phone and I'm putting it in my pocket because that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to start making sure that I've verbalized what I'm doing. Pastor Craig, thank you so much.

Craig Groeschel:
Thank you. Much love, Lysa.

Lysa TerKeurst:
You too. Bye-bye.

Craig Groeschel:
Bye.

Kaley Olson:
OK, Meredith, that was a great conversation. I love it when they just talk and I can listen and get all the nuggets of wisdom, but I must admit something to the listeners here. Lysa talked about losing her phone all the time, which you're laughing at because we both know …

Meredith Brock:
[Laughter.] We've had this experience with her.

Kaley Olson:
That was the one change that Lysa wanted to make, and it is a pretty extensive investment to lose a phone and have to keep replacing it. But now that I'm a mom, I do get it. So I don't judge a person who loses their phone all the time because my mind's in a million places. But I do want to dig into that discussion a little bit here. And so Lysa at the end said, "I'm a person who doesn't lose my phone. I don't lose my phone." And I thought that was really powerful because Craig said, "You do what you do because of what you believe about you." And that's so interesting to me because we are creatures of habit, but a lot of the habit isn't necessarily just an action. It's in our mindset too.

And so, for me, at the beginning of the podcast, I talked about how I'm an efficient person and I like to combine tasks, and that was really fun. I do like to be efficient, but sometimes I see all the things that I have to get done and I'll be like, "I can't do it." Or I'll start one thing and move on to the next. And so what I have to believe about myself, and something I've been telling myself lately, is: Kaley, you are a focused person. You can do this. And when I believe that about myself and I create those parameters around my schedule and block off that time and really hone in, I'm amazed at what I can do. But if I don't believe that about myself, I'm going to chase all the squirrels. And I'm never going to feel like I'm moving the needle. But whenever I believe … it's just crazy how that mindset shift can impact what I do in a day.

Meredith Brock:
Absolutely.

Kaley Olson:
What about you?

Meredith Brock:
I think … Specifically, I'll speak to the role that I play here at Proverbs 31 as CEO: I find myself in a lot of situations where there is a tremendous amount of pressure placed on me to make a decision or figure something out. There's high risk involved where there are employees who, if I make a decision, are going to be affected personally and professionally. And I think in this new season of my life, on some days, I will tell myself, I can't handle all this pressure. It's too much. I'm not smart enough to figure this out. I haven't gone to school. There's, like, I don't know … Is there a school for CEOs? Did I miss it?

And so I have started implementing this habit — and my husband and I will actually send each other text messages to remind each other — to tell myself, I am great under pressure. In fact, I do better under pressure. It makes me think clearer. It helps me move with efficiency and confidence. So I am great under pressure. And so that is one of the ways that I am changing the way that I think in this season.

Kaley Olson:
Yeah, that's really powerful. And so, listeners, I don't know what that is for you, but if you were to tell yourself a new thing to believe about you that would change the habits that you're doing, I think that that's worth thinking on and spending a little bit of time after this podcast kind of processing with yourself. But this was such a powerful and practical conversation. And if you are ready to learn more about creating habits that lead to change that lasts — from the master himself, Craig Groeschel — then grab his book The Power to Change using the link in our show notes below.

Meredith Brock:
And don't forget to grab the free resource we linked for you in the show notes as well, titled “31 Days To Form a New Habit.”

All right, friends, that's all we have for you today. As always, at Proverbs 31 Ministries, we believe when you know the Truth and live the Truth, it changes everything.