The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast

Kaley Olson:
Hello, friends! And thanks for tuning into the Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast, where we share biblical Truth for any girl in any season. I'm your host, Kaley Olson. And today I'm in the studio with my friend, Lisa Allen, who jumped in to co-host. Thanks for being here today, Lisa.

Lisa Allen:
Thanks for having me. Hi, Kaley.

Kaley Olson:
Hi.

Lisa Allen:
I'm so glad to be here. Well, in just a second you'll give our listeners a little preview of what they're going to learn today. But before you do that, I'd like to quickly remind our listeners about our Encouragement for Today devotions. They publish digitally every weekday throughout the year. So whether you're looking for guidance — let's say in your faith or friendships, family, your marriage or parenting, even in your workplace — our writers combine God's Truth with compassionate insight and practical application. Any one of those that are missing, it kind of can feel empty, but they pack all three of them together so you can even go out and walk it out. And I'm a girl who likes to keep my inbox really nice and tidy. I know you are too, Kaley.

So I'm excited to share that you can choose to receive a weekday email from us that includes the devotion of the day, or you can choose to receive a weekly email on Friday with all of the devotions for the week. I love that option. So the best thing about the devotion you'll receive is the content from writers who really know how to meet you in the middle of what you're walking through. But the second-best thing — they're free. So what are you waiting for? Hop on over to proverbs31.org and search for our devotions to subscribe.

Kaley Olson:
Yeah. Absolutely. I love our devotions because we get so many comments from readers who say, “I open this and this is exactly what I'm experiencing” —

Lisa Allen:
I needed.

Kaley Olson:
... today.” And it's just crazy how the Lord can work through somebody's words that are written ahead of time, that land in somebody's inbox a couple months later and all of a sudden, it's exactly what they needed —

Lisa Allen:
Its right there.

Kaley Olson:
... for that day.

Lisa Allen:
Love that.

Kaley Olson:
It's amazing. That's … Well, today we have our friend Amy Carroll on the show with us to talk about uncertainty. And for a girl like me, who desires things to pretty much always be black and white, which we're working on that friends, we're working on it. This is a powerful lesson I'm going to use when I'm looking for God to show me clarity. And Amy walks us through a simple Bible study process that she's learned, and I'm really excited for you guys to hear it. But Amy is a long-time friend to us, and she's actually an Encouragement for Today devotions writer —

Lisa Allen:
She is.

Kaley Olson:
... which is what Lisa just said, but she's a new friend to you guys. Her teaching is based on her brand new Bible study that she co-authored with Lynn Cowell. It's titled Esther: Seeing Our Invisible God in an Uncertain World. This is a resource you're going to want to get your hands on. So remember to visit our show notes at proverbs31.org/listen, and you can purchase the study through the link provided. All right friends, let's hop on over to our conversation with Amy. Well, Lisa, I can't think of a better way to spend the next few moments of our time. Can you? I mean, so fun.

Lisa Allen:
I'm so excited to be here.

Kaley Olson:
Me too. We're sitting here in the studio at Proverbs 31 Ministries and have our friend Amy Carroll joining us on the other side of the screen. Hi, Amy.

Amy Carroll:
Hi, you too. This is so fun.

Kaley Olson:
Oh goodness. Well, we are so excited to have you here, but you know what I realized, our Proverbs 31 Podcast audience has not been formally introduced to Amy yet. You and I know Amy, Lisa, and we love Amy, but we need to formally introduce her. So will you do the honors?

Lisa Allen:
I am happy to. Amy's one of my favorite people in the whole world. She's the author of several books, including a brand-new Bible study called Esther: Seeing Our Invisible God in an Uncertain World. Oh, I can't wait to read this book. She's passionate about teaching God's Word, and does so as a member of our Proverbs 31 Ministries Speaker Team and Writer Team, and she's the co-host of Grit 'n' Grace Podcast and so much more. Amy, I love following the work that God is doing through you on social media, and also, wow… we love a good cleaned up professional bio. What we really want you to feel like we're doing here at Proverbs, is like we're just sitting with you having a cup of coffee. And so I'm going to toss it to you Kaley because I know you have a few questions for Amy.

Kaley Olson:
I do. I like to do a little digging on people's websites and figure out what questions I can ask them based on their bio. And so Amy, you're laughing right now —

Amy Carroll:
I love it.

Kaley Olson:
... because I think you know what I'm about to ask you. I saw —

Amy Carroll:
[inaudible 00:04:32] A set up question.

Kaley Olson:
I know. I saw that you really don't like to cook, which is great. Lisa's raising her hand right here —

Lisa Allen:
Amen.

Kaley Olson:
... so is our technical audio engineer, Kaylene. We love a good takeout meal. So what is your go to takeout restaurant, and what would you order?

Amy Carroll:
I just love this because I'm actually an expert at this.

Kaley Olson:
That's good.

Amy Carroll:
Take out is great. My kitchen, not so much. So we have a pizza place in Holly Springs, North Carolina, where I live called ACME Pizza. And listen, I ordered the Chicago deep dish pizza.

Kaley Olson:
Yum.

Amy Carroll:
I have to have friends though to help me with it, because it is so amazing, and so deep. I bet that box weighs 10 pounds.

Kaley Olson:
Now you're talking. Now you're talking.

Amy Carroll:
So cheesy. I like the one with spinach in it, So I have —

Kaley Olson:
It's makes a salad.

Amy Carroll:
... specific takeout order.

Kaley Olson:
It makes it healthy. It makes it healthy.

Amy Carroll:
Vegetables.

Kaley Olson:
Salad pizza and it's 10 pounds. So you're working on your biceps at the same time while you're eating the pizza. OK. I love that because I love pizza as well. OK, next question: What was the last thing that you were influenced to buy?

Amy Carroll:
OK. I have a current fashion obsession, I guess you would say, and it's based on an ailment that I have. So I have plantar fasciitis. Have you guys ever had that?

Kaley Olson:
It's with your feet, right? Something with your feet?

Amy Carroll:
Yes. My feet are killing me all the time, and maybe some of our friends that are listening, they know. So I am currently in pursuit of the best flip flops ever made. You're not supposed to wear them when you have plantar fasciitis but I can't stand it that I'm a girl that loves cute shoes. So I cannot stand this idea of my running shoes all summer long. So if anybody knows the best flip flops, I just ordered some based on … I was influenced by an ad in my Instagram feed, but we'll see how they are. If anybody has any advice about flip flops with some support.

Kaley Olson:
That's great. I'm sure that we've got people who are listening right now who know how to hook you up with some good flip flops. So real quick, will you share what your Instagram handle is so that they can send you a message?

Amy Carroll:
I love this. It's at Amy Dohm Carroll. So it's A-M-Y-D-O-H-M-C-A-R-R-O-L-L. Send them to me sisters. Please, I need some help.

Lisa Allen:
All right. Take care of her shoe problem.

Kaley Olson:
That's great. Well, we are solving the pizza problems, we're solving the shoe problems. But now Amy, we are going to turn the table over to you so that you can give your teaching. And we're really excited to learn from you today.

Amy Carroll:
Thank you. I'm excited too. Uncertainty … That's the kind of word that makes a reforming perfectionist like me shutter. Routine, predictability and certainty feel like bedrock to me. Uncertainty is the stuff of nightmares, but the past few years have been a worldwide, super storm of uncertainty. Between the pandemic, political division, church upheaval and the loud voices around it all, I found myself in a strange new space. Where I once found safety and comfort and certainty, I'm finding it no longer serves me well. Uncertainty has become my awkward new friend. Maybe that's why the words of a meme I read recently stirred up some deep questions for me.

It read, "The more certainty you bring to the table, the greater your value." The writer spoke with such authority. She seemed so well certain, which made my misgivings feel wrong. But is that principle correct? Is our value really based on our level of certainty? Cultural certainty is at a higher pitch than ever. Choose any issue, and then listen to a talking head on either side. Even though they have differing opinions, their audience share is tied to their volume and level of certainty.

One look at our social media feed tell us the same tale. In a debate in your feed, most sentences end with periods, not question marks. We're often furious, but rarely curious. Our world seems to have deemed certainty a priceless virtue. Certainty seems to rule the day in our faith too. Each theological community acts like they own the truth while others fall short. And these battles, the trenches are deep and fixed. There's a lot of noise but very little grace. As I pondered certainty and human value, I remembered another quote that started me on a journey about a year ago.

These words from an unknown author are a reminder that certainty shouldn't be our highest goal. This meme read, "Just because you're certain doesn't mean you're right." I've begun adding the uncomfortable extension, “Just because I'm certain doesn't mean I'm right.” This thought has been shaping the way I'm approaching both interpersonal connections and my Bible study. Certainty is an obstacle for both. Now that's a strong statement. So before you get squeamish or check out on me, let me quickly acknowledge that there's a place for certainty in what we believed about God. In John 17:8 Jesus Himself, while He's talking to His father says, "For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me" (NIV).

Jesus' divinity is an essential certainty. There are also some other truths in Scripture, like those outlined in The Nicene and Apostles’ Creed in which we can be certain. But can we agree that some parts of Scripture are unclear and a little confusing. In those places we need to pursue something other than certainty. Consider the definition of the word certain, the definition includes sure, fixed, agreed upon, settled. Since certainty is immovable it makes us feel safe, but negatively because it's fixed, it keeps us from discovering and learning, growing and maturing.

Hebrews 11:6 says, "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." (NIV) Certainty, shuts down seeking. Entrenching ourselves in certainty keeps us from asking questions, seeking other points of view from wise people, embracing the mystery of God. To avoid those pitfalls, what if we stop fleeing uncertainty and embrace it. With just a small tweak in our end goal, we can take a big step forward.

Let's replace a quest for certainty with a journey toward clarity. Clarity is a word that contains within its definition, freedom from confusion or doubt, but it implies curiosity, development and imperfect progress. Certainty and clarity are what we southerners call kissing cousins, but a little shift away from certainty and toward clarity would be a gift to both our relationships and our Bible study. Searching for clarity encourages us to ask questions so we can grow, seek other points of view from wise people who stretch our understanding, embrace the mystery of God in a way that brings us into a lifetime of seeking Him.

So here's my proposal for us as Jesus followers — to grow closer to God and others let's pursue clarity instead of pricing certainty. In the last two years, I've researched the book of Esther to write a study with my co-author Lynn. And we've had lots of opportunities to lean into uncertainty as a pathway to scriptural clarity. I've seen how uncertainty has become a valuable device in my Bible study tool belt. When we push past the Hollywoodized versions of Esther, we quickly learned that it's a very controversial book of the Bible.

Even the greats had some ambivalence about Esther. As far as we know, John Calvin never preached from Esther. Martin Luther denounced Esther saying, "I'm so great an enemy to Esther that I wish it had not come to us at all for it has too many heathen unnaturalities." If two theological giants can feel uncertain about Esther, no wonder we feel the same. Even though I've done almost two years of deep study, I'm still not certain about the meaning of some of the parts of this fascinating story. There are many passages within the book of Esther that are puzzling, but I'm particularly fascinated by one.

To summarize, Esther has become queen, but her husband, the king under the influence of an evil enemy sent out an edict that was a death sentence for her people the Jews. In Esther 4 — the climax of the story — Mordecai Esther's uncle challenges her to take the life-threatening step of speaking out against the coming genocide. In Esther 4:13-14, Mordecai sends this message to Esther, "‘Do not think that because you are in the king's house you alone of all the Jews will escape. For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance for the Jews will arise from another place, but you and your father's family will perish. And who knows but that you have come to your royal position for such a time as this."

Even though the end of Mordecai's message is the most well-known passage of Esther, “for such a time as this,” it makes its way onto t-shirts and coffee mugs. But commentators disagree as to the specific meaning of his words at the beginning of the passage. Some say that he was bullying Esther, threatening to reveal the Jewish identity that he had encouraged her to hide until this point. Some think that it's a veiled warning of God's divine retribution if she refuses to help. Others say that he was just reminding her that God is sovereign, and that He would take care of His people with or without her participation.

Well, those are three very different interpretations. How's a lay person to be certain about the Bible's meaning when even the experts see a passage differently? And this is just one tiny message with a mysterious meaning. The Bible contains a myriad. Over a decade ago, a wise mentor gave me a Bible study tool that's been invaluable as I've wrestled with difficult passages like this one. I've named it the clarity principle. It helps us in spots in the Bible where we feel the discomfort of uncertainty.

When we run across difficult to understand passage of scripture, we don't rush to interpret it through our human lens or build a whole wonky theology around it, instead we dig into the whole of scripture from beginning to end, interpreting the unclear passages with the clear ones. Thus, the clarity principle. My friend Lynn had her curiosity peaked by this passage and she joined hands with uncertainty to walk toward clarity. She applied the clarity principle to this passage in a deep dive reading across the whole of scripture to understand.

Through reading, study and research, she found that the Hebrew in Mordecai's message echoes another part of scripture in Numbers 30. Although the English doesn't translate in the same way, the ancient echo of Mordecai's words can be summarized, "If you don't speak up now, Esther, it's the same as agreeing with this evil edict." I've used the clarity principle over and over again, as I've studied. I've used it to gain more clarity about some of Jesus' confusing words, just like the ones in His interaction with the Canaanite woman in Matthew 15; searching through Scripture has led to more clarity as I've sought to understand God's heart in His Old Testament law.

And I've been delighted by the insights I'm receiving about women in the church, as I've studied women in Scripture. Using scripture to interpret scripture brings clarity, not certainty, but clarity. It's a process, and we're going to keep leaning into uncertainty so that we can seek understanding. The next time you run across a passage of scripture that makes you uncertain, or challenges your certainty as you read the Bible, don't skip it, don't rush past it, don't squelch your questions.

View uncertainty as a great gift in your Bible study and embrace it. Use the clarity principle. Ask God questions, read through scripture looking for connections. Seek out the perspective of wise godly people in your community. Uncertainty is our awkward but dear friend; instead of seeing uncertainty as a threat, we can use it as motivation to move forward toward clarity. You can trust God's hand in the process, and clarity will come.

Lisa Allen:
Wow, Amy, that was great and so practical. I love how you wrapped up at the end with the clarity principle, and how it applies to maybe a passage of scripture that you're unsure about. And I think all of us are in devotions, and we're in Bible studies, and we are learning and digging into things on our own. But I think Amy, I can identify a lot with you whenever you say you're a recovering perfectionist. And you desire a lot of clarity around maybe the things that God is asking you to do. And I feel like that whenever I want to crack over my Bible and just say, "OK, God highlight something for me." But it feels so unclear, especially when a decision might be, like two decisions are equally OK. Does that make sense? And so Amy, I would love to hear from you about how do you use the clarity principle with maybe a decision, that you feel like you need to make, or maybe a prompting from God whenever it feels very unclear?

Amy Carroll:
Absolutely. I mean, I think that's so important because all of us want to be in the will of God, I believe. If we love Him, and we're following Him and devoted to Him, it's a priority for us to be in His will. One thing that set me free, and I think this is something, because the clarity principle is all about reading across scripture, not basing a decision or a theology, or some belief system around one single scripture, but doing a really deep reading. So sometimes if you have a decision to make, maybe you do a word study. And so go to a concordance and there's so many free things online now.

BibleGateway.com has word study capabilities. And so the thing that you're trying to decide on, you do a word study on that and read many scriptures from the Old Testament and the New Testament. Try to seek God's wisdom, seek clarity for that decision. But I think the biggest thing that set me free years ago was that one of my mentors said to me, "Amy, God's will is that we walk with Him." And so sometimes it's not as … maybe if you're deciding on the university that you're going to or something, it's not being in or out of God's will to decide on one or the other, but to walk with Him wherever you decide to go.

Lisa Allen:
That's great.

Amy Carroll:
But I think that's consistent across Scripture. So the clarity principles kind of applied there.

Kaley Olson:
Yeah. Absolutely.

Lisa Allen:
I love that too, because it makes me think about, it kind of builds your muscles, such that you can walk it out in life. And I think about when you talk about embracing uncertainty, I think it applies to so many different areas of our lives that are uncertain. Maybe it's an uncertain job position, or an uncertain part of your marriage, or trying to get pregnant or something like that, you can apply that faith to those areas that you're actually having to walk out specifically in your life. So I love that Amy. Amy, I was also thinking about when you talked about cultural certainty, that really hit home to me because you're so right. We've never been more uncertain. And yet we've never seen so many people, so sure about so many things on social media feeds. And so I'm curious, what role do you find that humility plays in uncertainty?

Kaley Olson:
That's a good question.

Amy Carroll:
This is so huge, Lisa. I'm glad you asked this, because I was focused today on our Bible study and my teaching, but this is so relevant to our interactions and in culture, and in our relationships right now. And humility is a huge part of that. And one of the things that I loved is I saw that in Esther. So in Esther 4, where she comes, she's in this crisis moment that she is being asked to do something that is very uncertain. For those of us who have read the study of Esther, she was going to go before her husband, the king, but she had not been summoned to him. And so her life was legitimately in danger. Now we know the end of the story, Esther was not killed by her husband, but Esther didn't ... And I think sometimes we forget that these people that we read about in the Bible, they were human.

And they were in these very uncertain circumstances just as we find ourselves in today. And so when Esther did that, when she was faced with that crisis, what she did was so counterintuitive because so many times you two know me, so you might know that I'm a little opinionated at times. And sometimes my opinion runs out in front. So my natural reaction to try to figure it out, to try to white knuckle it through, to do things in my own strength, but that is not what Esther models for us. She actually modeled such humility. Lisa, just as you said, she said to Mordecai, "OK, I'm going to get my people together, and you get the people outside of the palace walls together, and we're going to fast and pray." So what she did was so humble.

She didn't try to figure it out. She didn't try to muscle through it. And what she did is that she leaned into the uncertainty, and it drove her to God Himself through fasting and prayer. And so I just see that as such a model for us today, that all this certainty in our culture is creating such division, and we're seeing the fruit of it and it's really bad fruit. And so that's why I was like, OK, if we're not, if certainty is not producing what we really want, what is it that will? And I think this idea of clarity really will help us in that.

Lisa Allen:
I'm so intrigued with how you drew the humility right to her response. And the two other words that come to my mind, Amy, is humility and she also was obedient. She took a bold step of obedience, but then I don't have the passage in front of me, but she was discerning. Remember when she was going to go and talk to the king and she had a banquet, but then she had, she decided that through, I think probably through her prayer and fasting that it wasn't time. And she did the banquet the next day. And so it's so important that we're grounded in that relationship with God and the prayer and the fasting because that's where that discernment comes in uncertainty.

Amy Carroll:
Well, and I think that's what, if we're certain about things it keeps us from seeking God. I really do see it as an obstacle. So when … but if we're seeking clarity, then that by definition means that we're seeking God and what He wants us to do in those situations.

Lisa Allen:
Yeah. Absolutely. I think you’re absolutely right Amy in that, if we’re so certain of ourselves and our situations, then it’s going to keep us from seeking God. But I think not equally as important, but next as important is it’s going to keep us from being humble and open with others in our life to admit that we don’t have it figured out. And I think today’s culture, everybody wants to be the expert. We want to appear cool, calm and collected on the outside. And it’s really hard to admit when we’re struggling, or to admit whenever we don’t have clarity about something. And I do agree with you that the most important thing that we can do is seek God before inviting others in. But I think it’s inviting others in to help hold us accountable and walk with us through a season of uncertainty, is what really helps us walk forward in obedience and be held accountable in that.

And that’s something I know I’m working on, but this teaching really spoke to me in that way. So thank you so much Amy for spending time with us on the show today. I’d love to take a moment while we have you to talk about your new Bible study that you authored with Lynn Cowell called, Esther: Seeing Our Invisible God in an Uncertain World. And so I truly believe this is a powerful message and something we could use today because we just talked about how uncertain our culture feels. And I think that this is going to be a powerful study that we can do together. And so if you would like to purchase this study to do alone or with a group of friends, you can check out our show notes at proverbs31.org/listen. And we've provided the link for you there.

Lastly, I want to remind our listeners to subscribe for our free Encouragement for Today devotions. If you haven't signed up already, we'd really love to have you be a part of our devotions’ community, and are confident that God speaks through these every day. Visit us at proverbs31.org to sign up today. All right, friends, that is all for today. We are so glad that you joined us as always at Proverbs 31 Ministries. We believe when you know the truth and live the truth, it changes everything.