The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast

Lysa:
Good morning. Thank you. I am so honored to be here at this amazing church. I've known Pastor Derwin and Vicki for decades. Of course, we met in elementary school, so that's not really giving away my age. But it's such an honor, so thank you for having me. I want to talk about something today that I think when you first hear it, you may want to cross your arms and feel a little defensive, but if you'll give me a chance, I think you'll soon find the exact reason that you came to church in this place on this day.

Lysa:
The topic I'm going to speak on is boundaries. I know there's a little rumble in here. But before we even get to boundaries, let's back up and talk about the equally exciting topic of relationship dysfunction. Yes, what a light and airy topic to speak on, on this beautiful Sunday morning.

Lysa:
Here's the deal. I could grab the mic this morning and just really share all kinds of dysfunction that I've experienced, that I've contributed to, that I've lived with. I would imagine we could start right over here, tell me your name? [Lysa offers the microphone to someone sitting nearby.]

Lysa:
Marilyn, we could just start with you. I can hand you the mic and you could share about your family dysfunction. And Marilyn's like, "No, no." Don't worry. I'm not going to. "It's big," she said. OK. Well see, now you're already sharing. Thank you. I wasn't going to hand you the mic, but since you shared, thank you — big family dysfunction. Awesome. Then we could go on to you, [pointing to another person] and you could share your family dysfunction, and you could share yours [pointing to another person]. We could just keep going. Honestly, we could pass the microphone around. My family's over here. We could really get some stories over here about some family dysfunction. And then if we got to someone that said, "No, I have no family dysfunction" … you may be the dysfunction. We are not going to pass the microphone around and put someone in that position.

Lysa:
But here's the thing. I want us just to all take a deep breath and just breathe it out and just realize that where there is dysfunction, where there is relationship chaos, it's usually a sign that there's a lack of boundaries. I'm going to confess to you right off the bat — I have been studying boundaries for two years, not because I'm a master at it but because I desperately needed to know more about boundaries. I've been in a season of my life with a lot of hurt, a lot of trauma, and quite honestly, walking through dysfunction, like I said, that I've both contributed to and lived in.

Lysa:
Here's the thing that I know to be true: We get used to our own dysfunctions, and we start calling it “normal.” And then we start calling it “normal” to the point where usually it wears us out and wears us down. We eventually get to this place where we are saying to ourselves and to some of our friends or to some of the people we try to do life with, "I just can't take it anymore." You've tried it all. You've tried the advice. You've tried counseling. You've tried talking it out, fighting it out, wearing out, wearing down. You've tried it all. And if you hit that spot where you just start to say, "Nothing is working," I want to propose to you maybe why.

Lysa:
Because maybe you've attempted to draw some healthy parameters or have healthy definitions or healthy boundaries in the relationship. But the frustration comes when you finally realize ultimately you cannot control another person. And so many of us try to implement boundaries when we hit that point of absolute exhaustion and frustration where we are desperate to control the actions of another person. But then we start thinking boundaries don't work for us because that other person won't be controlled.

Lysa:
If someone were to have a cardiac event today and we started doing CPR on them, we could sustain their life using external pressure for a while. But at some point if that person's heart does not start beating on its own, you cannot permanently sustain their life using external pressure. And the same is true with changes that you want another person to make. You can't sustain behavior modification using external pressure. Never have you seen two people walking around the mall, one person doing chest compressions on the other person, and thought to yourself, Wow, that's a real sustainable situation right there. No — because again, using external pressure can temporarily maybe monitor someone's behavior, but true, lasting change has got to come from within.

Lysa:
What do we do? Well, when I sought to start studying boundaries in the Bible, one of the first places I turned to was Genesis. Now, if you know anything about me, you know I have an obsession with Genesis. I go back to Genesis all the time. And the reason is because sometimes the most powerful lessons that we can learn in the Bible, when you want to know the fullness of a meaning of a verse that comes later in the Bible, it's good to go to what is called, in theological study, the law of first mention. So the first time something is mentioned or pictured in the Bible, that will provide context for every other mention or picture in the Bible of that same subject.

Lysa:
I started asking the question, "Are boundaries even mentioned in the Bible? And even more so, is it even Christian to draw boundaries?" Because sometimes it feels a little unkind. Sometimes it feels like maybe even we're violating Scripture. Didn't Jesus lay down His life for His friends? Aren't we instructed to do the same thing? Yes. Jesus laid down His one life for a high and holy purpose. Jesus did not lay down His life to enable bad behavior to continue. We cannot enable bad behavior and call it love. We cannot tolerate things we should no longer be tolerating and call it a sustainable relationship. Love should be what draws us together, not what tears us apart.

Lysa:
"Where do we find boundaries first mentioned in the Bible?" So glad you asked this great theological question on a Sunday morning in July. Interestingly, the very first conversation we see, or teaching we see, or mention we see, of a boundary is found in Genesis 2, in the first recorded conversation between God and man. Listen to this in Genesis 2:15-17. "The Lᴏʀᴅ God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the Lᴏʀᴅ God commanded the man, 'You are free to eat from any tree in the garden, but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die'" (NIV).

Lysa:
It's so fascinating to me that of all the subjects God could have chosen to be the topic of the first recorded conversation that He has with man, He chooses to put a boundary and emphasize a boundary in that conversation. That's fascinating to me. And what I started to see as I read through the Bible is that boundaries are not just a good idea. They're actually God's idea. You see, God is a God of order. Boundaries are truly the only fighting chance we have at communicating toward order in our relationships. Where there is dysfunction or where there is relational chaos, like I said, there's usually a lack of boundaries.

Lysa:
Now, I want to pay attention to how God communicates this. Notice intentionally how God chooses the context of freedom for this boundary conversation. God establishes right away: "You are free …" (Genesis 2:16, NIV). In other words, "I'm not trying to control you. I'm not trying to manipulate you. I'm actually giving you a choice, and therefore you are free. You are free to eat from all the trees in the garden, trees that are good for food and pleasing to the eye."

Lysa:
Do you see the tremendous freedom? He's not trying to box Adam in. He's not trying to punish him. He's not trying to be overly controlling. No, He's establishing [this]: "There is freedom here for you to make choices and express who you are. There's freedom. You are free to eat from any of the trees in the garden, but you must not eat from this tree right here. The tree that is in the middle of the garden, called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."

Lysa:
Now, was God establishing this boundary to be a killjoy God? No. He was actually establishing the boundary for the sake of protection. You say, "Why would God not want Adam to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?" Have you recently had a feeling when you turned on the news and heard of another horrific shooting … Have you had this feeling of it's not supposed to be this way? That sinking, awful feeling that there's evil in this world and that evil sometimes affects and touches really good people, innocent people … yeah, that's the knowledge of evil, and that's that heavy weight that God never intended for the human heart to bear.

Lysa:
Why did God say, "Don't eat from this tree."? To be overly restrictive? No, it was to protect Adam from that which he didn't know, that God fully knew. And He said, "I'm putting a boundary. Don't do this." So it was for freedom and it was for protection. And honestly it was provision so that sin wouldn't enter in — because if you ate from the tree of the knowledge of good evil, not only would you carry, then, that heavy burden of the knowledge of evil, but sin would enter in. Sin is something that creates a separation. So God was providing a way for intimate closeness in drawing this boundary.

Lysa:
But if you keep reading in Genesis, later on, in Genesis 3, you see that Adam and his eventual wife, Eve, do choose to take from that tree, and they eat of that fruit. They violate God's boundary. I found it fascinating, as I was studying boundaries in the Bible, that boundaries started off with this conversation. Can you imagine there just being one rule? When God first established a boundary with humans, when He first gave a rule, He just gave one rule, just one. Can you imagine living in a world where there was just one rule?

Lysa:
Honestly, as a rule follower, that just brings me so much joy. Because the chances are if there was just one rule, then we would all cooperate with that one rule. And to a rule follower … I just want everybody to cooperate with the rules. Truly, it's not that hard, especially if there's just one. But when that rule was violated, as we continue to walk through the Bible and we get to the place of the Law and the Prophets, when you get over toward Leviticus, for example, there's over 600 boundaries, 600 rules, 600 laws. And so you can see not only that where there's the presence of chaos, there is the need for boundary, but the more chaos there is, the more boundaries are needed.

Lysa:
Indeed, boundaries are not just a good idea; they're God's idea. But probably one of the most fascinating things that I discovered in the Bible, asking myself the questions, "Is it even Christian to draw boundaries? Where is an example of God drawing another boundary in the Bible?" … When we get to the place where God establishes the parameters of the way that the temple would work, certain people were given certain access to certain parts of the temple. Not because they were more valuable or God favored them more but because the more access you were given to the closest part of the temple, to the presence of God, the Holy of Holies — the closer the access that you had, the more access you were given — the more responsibility was required, and the more severe the consequences were for violating the responsibilities to have that kind of access.

Lysa:
By the time you get to the Holy of Holies, only one person was granted access to the Holy of Holies once a year. It was the high priest to make atonement for the sins of the people. The high priest had the greatest access. He had the greatest responsibility, and he would suffer the greatest consequence if he didn't live up to the responsibilities he needed to in order to have that kind of access. You see, before the high priest would enter into the Holy of Holies to make atonement for the sins of the people once a year, to stand fully in the presence of God, he had to be cleansed and perfectly purified. For if he walked into the Holy of Holies without the fulfilling the responsibility that was required, he would drop dead.

Lysa:
I started thinking about these three words: “access,” “responsibility,” “consequences.” And if you want to nail down this complicated, nuanced topic of boundaries, it's those three words. It's access, responsibility and consequences. Now, here's what I mean by that. Every single one of us has certain limitations. For example, is there anyone in here who is completely unlimited in your time? You just absolutely have the most time, more time than other people, and you can just give and operate in the space of tons of time?

Lysa:
No, you are limited in your time. Not because you're selfish but because you're human. God is unlimited in time. We are limited in our provision. God is unlimited in His provision. We are limited with our resources. God is unlimited with resources. We are limited with our strength. God is unlimited in His strength.

Lysa:
You see, sometimes when we don't draw boundaries, we send the communication to the other person that somehow we can extend ourselves over our limitations for a long period of time, and there will be no consequences for that. Yet internally, we know that there are consequences for hyperextending ourselves over and over and over, physically, financially, relationally, in all kinds of ways. So when I say “access,” I mean the ability that we have to give to other people from ourselves and to allow them closeness; that's access.

Lysa:
For example, if we give people level-10 access, then we need to require level-10 responsibility. The problem is so many of us are giving other people level-10 access to us and to all of our resources and to all of our emotion and to all of our finances and to all of our everything … and when we give level-10 access to someone but they are only willing or capable of bringing level-three responsibility, therein lies the chaos. Therein lies the frustration. Therein lies the potential for that relationship to be damaged and dysfunctional.

Lysa:
Here's the mistake I used to make. I used to think, "OK, then I need to tell that person they need to lift up their responsibility to the access that I have given them." But we all know we cannot control or manipulate another person. If they are unwilling or incapable of lifting up their responsibility, then it will be a futile effort. We will keep banging our head against the wall, having the same conversations of, "You should. I wish you would. Why won't you?" And all of those conversations are just going to further create relational tension, frustration for you because changes aren't being made and frustration for them because they feel like they're being nagged to death.

Lysa:
We can't really put boundaries on other people hoping to make them change. Instead, we need to draw boundaries in the relationship and possibly put some boundaries on ourselves. If that person is only willing or capable of level-three responsibility, then to put a boundary on the relationship and to put a boundary on myself means I reduce the access I give them down to level three because that's where they can be responsible with that kind of access. And that's my choice. The access I give to another person is my choice. It's within my control.

Lysa:
And honestly, biblically speaking, it's my responsibility to be self-controlled. Let me read you a couple of verses. And honestly, I think a great place to start is over in Genesis 4, talking about how important it is to be self-controlled. In Genesis 4, after Adam and Eve, the first two humans, leave the garden, they have two children who are recorded in Genesis 4: Cain and Abel. There becomes this tension between Cain and Abel because Abel makes an offering that pleases the Lord, and Cain makes an offering that does not please the Lord. We find Cain in a very depressed, very frustrated and angry place in Genesis 4:6.

Lysa:
And so the Lord addresses this with Cain. It says, "Then the LORD said to Cain, 'Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast?'" (Genesis 4:6, NIV). In other words, "Why are you so depressed? Why are you so riddled with anxiety?" And listen to the advice that the Lord gives him. "If you do what is right," the Lord says to Cain, "will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it" (Genesis 4:7-8, NIV).

Lysa:
In other words, the Lord is saying, "You need to tend well to this anger. You need to work on this anger because if you don't, unattended-to anger will absolutely turn into unattended bitterness, and unattended bitterness will turn you into someone you are never meant to be. Indeed, sin is crouching at your door. It desires to have you, but you must be self-controlled enough to rule over it." As I continue to look for this pattern in the Bible — unattended-to anger, unattended-to bitterness, unresolved frustration, and a desire for resentment and retaliation — I found that almost every time unattended-to anger is mentioned in the Bible, there's a warning about the enemy drawing close.

Lysa:
Let me give you a couple other examples. In Ephesians 4: 26-27: "In your anger do not sin. Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold" (NIV). Let me read you one more. In 1 Peter 5:8a: "Be alert and of sober mind" (NIV). Now, a lot of times when we hear the word “sober,” we think of just not being drunk on alcohol. But here a sober mind means don't be drunk on intense emotions. Don't stay in that frustrated, triggered place where you are constantly in “fight, flight or freeze” mode, where your logical brain has checked out and it's just all of this reaction mode kicking in.

Lysa:
It says, "Be alert and of sober mind.” Don't let yourself become drunk on unattended-to emotions. “Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour." (NIV) You see, unattended-to strong emotion is like dropping blood in the ocean, and the sharks draw near. I just see it over and over and over in the Bible, that where there is unattended-to anger, rage, bitterness, brawling, slander, a desire for retaliation, the enemy is drawing close because he would love to recruit us to do his work for him in tearing down other people. But remember: God's version of love is that love should be what draws us together, not what tears us apart.

Lysa:
Now, is it wrong to feel angry? No, you can feel anger but not sin in your anger. You see, feelings are really a gift. There's a purpose to them because feelings help us navigate the way things are affecting us. But while feelings should be a great indicator of things that need to be addressed, feelings should never be a dictator of how we act and react. Feelings are a great indicator but should never be a dictator of how we act and react. Therefore, self-control is absolutely necessary.

Lysa:
Proverbs 25:28 says this: "Like a city whose walls are broken through, is a person who lacks self-control" (NIV). You see, boundaries aren't meant to shove others away. Boundaries are meant to help us be self-controlled and hold ourselves together. Boundaries aren't about leaving people. Boundaries are about loving people well without losing the best of who we are. We don't want to get to such a worn-out, worn-down place in some relationships that we act a fool in all of our relationships because we lack self-control to maintain and protect the best of who we are.

Lysa:
What are we supposed to do about this? Are there healthy perspectives and unhealthy perspectives when drawing boundaries? Absolutely. Let me give you three healthy perspectives when setting good boundaries, and some of them I've already mentioned.

Lysa:
No. 1: A boundary should never be used to control, manipulate or punish someone. Sometimes we wait so long to draw a boundary to where we are so frustrated and so aggravated we speak out of emotion, and we try to establish a boundary when the emotional intensity is so severe that we lash out and try to punish that person with our boundary. Or we establish a boundary that's so unrealistic we can't possibly maintain it. So a boundary should never be established to control, manipulate or punish another person.

Lysa:
No. 2: A boundary is not something we place on another person trying to force them to change. We already talked about that.

Lysa:
And then No. 3: A boundary should never be used as an excuse to “peace out” on our responsibilities or just simply “tap out” when a relationship just gets difficult. There is a huge difference between a difficult relationship that absolutely we should fight for and a destructive relationship that we should absolutely make some harder choices with. Boundaries give us every fighting chance to set some freedom in that relationship, to protect that relationship and help that relationship go the distance. I'm convinced more relationships die not because we try to have healthy conversations, or we have the hard conversations and they don't go well, but because we refuse to have the conversations that were so very needed.

Lysa:
Now, I know in a room like this, with all the relationships represented, there's different kinds of relationships. There's different kinds of hardships. And if we had hours and hours and hours … again, we could pass around the microphone and say, “Let’s just have a boundary conversation with you guys. Let's just do a little counseling right here. We'll talk about your boundaries and their boundaries, and we could really dig into the nuances of the relationship …” But we don't have time for that.

Lysa:
But I do want to tell you, it is absolutely worth tending to these boundary conversations, and not all boundary conversations have to be horrible. Let me give you an example of a boundary conversation that is needed, but it doesn't have to be like this horrible, awful, tense, just destructive thing. OK, so tell me your name. [Lysa hands the microphone to someone nearby.]

Regina:

Regina:

Lysa:
Regina. OK, Regina. I like how you said that. Everybody else on a row is like, "Pick Regina, not me." Regina, you and I are amazing friends. We just met, but I'm just saying for the sake of this example, you and I are super, super close friends, and we love going to church together. We love it. It's one of our favorite things to do. We love to go to conferences together. We just love doing stuff. Now, I have an issue, and it's adding some complication in our relationship. My issue is that I have a different definition of being “on time” than you do.

Lysa:
Now, this is not making you bad and me good. It does not make me bad and you good. We just have a different definition of being on time. Your definition — I don't know if this is true or not, but let's just go with it — is that as long as we get there before the last praise song’s note is played, just before the message, and we can just get there and get in, then to you that is being on time. We're just making this up.

Regina:
That's accurate.

Lysa:
That's accurate. OK, good. The honesty is so healthy right now. I just love it. So this is true. Regina feels like “on time” means as long as we just scoot in at the last song and she hadn't missed any of the message, then she is on time for church.

Speaker X:
Hallelujah.

Lysa:
Hallelujah, OK. You see, I have a different definition of being on time. I really do. So to me, being on time means I want to get there 30 minutes early. But there's a purpose: I want to get there because I want to get my seat. I just want to have the full orientation of what's going on. I want to go to the bathroom. I want to get some water. If they have snacks, “yes, please.” If they have merch, “yes, please” again. And then I want to come back, check my stuff, make sure it's all there, all good. Still got my seat. And then I want to go tee-tee potty one more time because I'm 50 years old. We don't need to unpack that. I'm just saying … one more time, OK? And then I want to come back to my seat, and that's my version of being on time. I need to be in my seat before the very first announcement slide comes up.

Lysa:
Do you see how if Regina and I were riding to the conference together, we're riding to church together, and she says that she will pick me up on time for church, and then she picks me up, we're going to get there late? Late according to me — “on time” to her. Do you see how this could provide an opportunity for some real, serious tension in our relationship?

Lysa:
I have a choice. I can pretend to be fine. I'm fine. You're fine. We're fine. It's fine. I'm OK with being late because you know what? I'm just choosing to be fine. But inside my heart, I am just so frustrated because I'm sitting in my seat, and I have to go tee-tee potty and I never got to. I am thirsty, parched, can't even sing the worship song. I'm so aggravated. I just feel like my nerves are on the top of my skin and I can’t even hardly listen to the Bible verses because I just think, God, fix her. Fix her. Make the pastor say something that just hits her with a bolt of lightning, not enough to kill her or even to hurt her, but just make her realize she needs to be on time.

Lysa:
I'm not saying any of you do this, and I'm not saying any of you are poking the person sitting next to you because you so relate to this. No, I'm not saying that. What I am saying though is it's a lie for me to say “I'm fine” if I am absolutely not fine. And over time, it might be OK one time, two times, three times, four times, five times. Maybe I'm even really mature and I can push into six, seven, eight, nine and 10 times.

Lysa:
But at some point I'm going to get so frustrated and so worn down that I start labeling her. She doesn't care. She doesn't even think about me. She knows how bad this bothers me, and she's late every single time. The disrespect … the disrespect. Now, is that true? Does she not care about me? No. [To Regina:] Tell me, how much do you care about me?

Regina:
I care so much about you.

Lysa:
I care so much about you. Do you intend to be disrespectful?

Regina:
No.

Lysa:
No. It's just where there's chaos, there's usually a lack of a boundary. And so this boundary doesn't mean that I shove Regina away. It means I'm brave enough to have a conversation with her. And I simply say, "Hey, Regina. I love going to church with you. I love going to conferences with you. But I have an issue." See, I'm not making an accusation. I'm owning it. "I have an issue. My definition of being on time is 30 minutes early," and I explain about the tee-tee potty, the whole situation.
Then I say, "And that doesn't make me a bad person. It also doesn't make me ultimately right. It just means I'm different. Your definition is different, and neither one of us are bad people, but it may mean that we need to ride separately. Now, we can still sit in the conference together, and certainly if you have a day where you're not as creative with your time, and you want to arrive 30 minutes early to the conference with me, let's ride together. Otherwise, it's OK. Let's ride separately. And guess what? Bonus: I'll get there and I will save you a seat. Yes. And so you can just come on in, girl, with your party-party-happy self at the last praise song. I have already gone to the bathroom, and I am prepared, and I got to watch the announcements. We're both happy and we can enjoy church together.”

Lysa:
Now, I know not all boundary conversations are going to work quite like this. And some issues are much, much deeper than whether or not we're going to be on time to church or the conference, but maybe today's message will help us get thinking in the right direction. Boundaries — it's not about leaving people. It's about loving people without losing the best of who we are. If we keep loving people, but that's really code for enabling people, it's no wonder we're going to get so worn out from the dysfunctions that will absolutely arise and will threaten to take us out, take us down.

Lysa:
Do you know the enemy's very name means “one who casts something between two to cause a separation”? God has a will for us, and it is to love. The enemy has a will for us, and it is to separate. And if we have God's Spirit in us, we have the self-control that we need to love other people well without losing the best of who we are.

Lysa:
God, help us. Help us to navigate all the relationship opportunities that are before us. God, give us the wisdom, the wisdom to know how to have these conversations, the wisdom to know the timing of the conversations. Help us to have productive, healthy dialogue about what we need and what we don't need, what we can and cannot tolerate, what we are willing and are unwilling to accept. God, don't make us wallow in all the trauma and drama. We don't have to show up to every drama we're invited to. Help us to remember that.
And God, make us aware if we're being selfish; then help us to see and feel convicted that we're being selfish. But if we're simply just acknowledging that we are limited because we are human, help us to have healthy conversations about our limitations. Help us have healthy conversations about what can set our relationships up to go the distance, and help us to listen well to other people too.
Thank You, God, that Your Word provides so much insight if we will just open up Your Word, get into Your Word and let Your Word get into us. We love You, Lord, and we want to love other people well. And all God's people said, amen.

Lysa:
Amen, amen and amen. Thank you.