The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast

Meredith Brock: Hi friends, thanks for tuning in to the Proverbs 31 Ministries podcast where we share biblical truth for any girl and any season. I'm your host, Meredith Brock, and I'm here today with my co-host, Shea Hill.

Shae Hill: Meredith, I love any time I get to be with you on the Proverbs 31 Ministries podcast. And today you guys are in for such a treat. We have Lysa on the show and she's going to be talking about forgiveness. And before you change the episode, because I would not be excited to maybe hear an episode on forgiveness today. Listen, I'm going to be talking about forgiveness.

I want you to know that we're gonna lead with such transparency and we're gonna lead with some really honest confessions of where we struggle with this topic and not even talk about the necessarily like the how-to of forgiveness, but just a reminder of why God even gives us this gift and this pathway to heal our hurts.

Meredith Brock: That's right, Shae. I'll be honest. I may be overshared.

Shae Hill: Never. No.

Not here, we're all friends here, you know?

Meredith Brock: But we talked through a real time thing that I'm facing and I just hope that it helps some of our listeners. This episode was really inspired by Lysa's most recent book, "Surviving an Unwanted Divorce." And we do talk about that a good bit on the podcast today. But if that is a topic that you are wrestling with specifically, if you're wrestling with divorce or the death of your marriage,

I wanna invite you to head on over to the Therapy and Theology podcast season 10, where you can hear even more about that and listen to Lysa, Jim and Joel really wrestle through that particular season. With that podcast, one woman wrote to us and said that she was in a desperate need for therapy

but she couldn't afford it. And then she found therapy and theology. And her story, sadly, is similar to Lysa's story of heartbreak. And this podcast is helping her right where she is. She said, you simply cannot stop. I know I'm not the only one who needs to keep going. Know that I'm sharing your podcast with my friends who need it. And I'll be honest, Shae, that

Her encouraging us, don't stop with these podcasts is what keeps me showing up for work every day.

Shae Hill: For sure, yeah.

Meredith Brock: Because I know there are women on the other side of this podcast, on the other side of our first five podcasts mobile app on the other side of our daily devotions who desperately need the encouragement of God's word. And that is what Proverbs 31 does. It meets women right where they are with the encouragement of God's word. And so if you are one of those women, one, I'm so glad you're here. Thank you for joining what we're doing here at Proverbs 31. And if you have received that level of encouragement, I do want to challenge you to know that Proverbs 31 is fully funded by by generous donations. And so if you are in a position that you can give today, we wanna encourage you, head on over to our website, hit that give button and give today so that we can keep delivering these kinds of podcasts. We can keep that First Five mobile app alive and the devotions that we deliver every day to your inbox. So good.

Shae Hill: All right, friends, don't be scared. This one's gonna be good. Let's jump right in.

We are so excited to welcome Lysa Terkeurst to the show today. Hi, Lysa.

Lysa TerKeurst: Hello. It's always so fun to join you guys. So thanks for having me.

Shae Hill: I'm so glad you're here. Lysa, you just released a book titled Surviving an Unwanted Divorce that you co-wrote alongside licensed professional counselor, Jim Cress, and P31's director of theological research, Dr. Joel Munamale.

Lysa, I know this was a book that you never wanted to write, but why did you have such a strong conviction in saying now is the time for this message?

Lysa TerKeurst: Well, I am up close and personal with a lot of women who have similar stories as mine. You know, I host Haven Place retreats.

out at my property and Jim and Joel and I get to have a front row seat at Healing Journeys for women. We bring in small groups of women in groups of 50. So when you have that small of a group and then we break them into small groups. So I literally sit around my dining room table and hear their stories, like 15 women at a time. And I just felt compelled that

They have access to...

what we teach about surviving an unwanted divorce through podcasts and through speaking engagements and things like that. But just to have a book to put on their nightstand when they wake up at 2 a.m. and their thoughts are spinning and they feel so alone, I just felt like a book is what is needed at this point. And like you said, I was not eager to write this message because I never wanted to live this message.

But I am very, very grateful to have a resource to put in someone's hands who either is walking through trying to survive an unwanted divorce or who is seeking advice for how do I help a friend or a loved one who's surviving an unwanted divorce.

Shae Hill: That's so good. Thank you for sharing.

sharing that. And honestly, thank you just for being brave. I know a book is such a personal experience and walking through an unwanted divorce is a personal experience. And so I know that that will be such a safe place for people to really process what they've been through. And I know you mentioned some of the other resources that we have. And one of those is Therapy and Theology, where you and Jim and Joel have unpacked some other concepts from the book in the recent season that just launched. And so friends, if you're listening today and you want to keep

listening to other messages after you finish today's podcast, make sure you go check out season 10 of Therapy and Theology and maybe share those episodes with a friend. I know that there will be a lot of wisdom for you in that series and we'll link it for you in the show notes below.

I have read through the manuscript of Surviving an Unwanted Divorce a few times. And so I feel like I can definitely speak to the fact that there is such rich content in there that's actually applicable to so many of us, regardless of divorce being part of our stories or not. And one of those topics is what's unpacked in chapter eight, which is titled,

Forgiveness feels so incredibly unfair. I love how honest that title is. I feel like it just invites me right in. And Lysa, you are someone who walks out forgiveness with such integrity, such humility, such honesty. And in our time together today on the Proverbs 31 podcast, I'd love for you to just walk us through how can we actually live this well? How can we really wrestle with the pain that we've experienced, but also the command to forgive.

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah.

I'm still hurting. This person's still causing me anxiety. This person, you know, won't stop their bad behavior or their sin against me was just too massive. And sometimes the unchangeable can feel unforgivable. And so I think we cross our arms sometimes lean back and just think forgiveness feels like such an unfair gift. We have to give to the person who is hurting us or who has hurt us the most.

And so I understand the resistance to forgiveness and it does sometimes feel incredibly impossible. So I think we don't start with forgiveness. I think we first start with the hurt and the pain.

You've probably heard me talk about before, but an exercise that my counselor led me through was just pulling out three by five cards and writing one thing on each card of a hurt or a pain that someone else has caused me or statements that they said that hurt me.

And the reason I think this activity is so important is because sometimes it feels like, what am I supposed to do to forgive? And it can feel like I'm just quipping it off the top of my head, like, oh, okay, Lord, you told me to forgive this person, so I forgive. The problem is our heart is just not signing up for it, you know? And so then when we get triggered because of that pain or that person does something else,

then it can feel like that pain inside of us just gets multiplied and multiplied. And maybe we did say that we forgive them, but now something new has happened with that person. We feel so bitter and resentful against them all over. And then we feel like a forgiveness failure. So then I hear people say, I'm just not a very forgiving person or forgiveness just doesn't really work for me. So I think we have to first understand

take a proper look at the hurt and the pain that we're in and get that out and

and put it out on a piece of paper, in a journal, three by five cards, whatever you wanna do. Because if we don't get it out, then how can we deal with something if we won't acknowledge the pain that's really there? And so I think that's a really important statement. And then after that, after we get it all out, we have to realize that forgiveness is two parts. It's fact and impact because every trauma is two parts. It's fact and impact.

It's the fact of what happened. And then it's the impact that that had on us or even more significant, the story we now tell ourselves because of what happened. And so forgiveness, breaking it into those two parts allows us to have space to forgive in a moment in time and be obedient to God.

but then also walk through the much longer process of what this did because of what the other person's actions cost us, right? And so in a moment in time, we can look at one of those cards and say, I am forgiving. I'm choosing to forgive this person out of obedience to God for this one fact of how they have hurt me or what they said to me. And whatever my feelings will not yet allow for, the blood of Jesus will surely cover it.

Now, once you do that, you have been obedient to God and your feelings don't even have to sign up for it because you're acknowledging that the finished work of Jesus can cover, like His blood can cover it. But it is a marked moment in time where out of obedience to God, we are walking through this process. So that's our marked moment of forgiveness. But then the impact, it's okay for that process to happen. I once had someone say,

to me, well, forgiveness isn't real if you don't automatically trust that person again, if you don't automatically reconcile with that person. And that's just not true. Forgiveness is a command by God, but trusting that person, that's not a command that has conditions and reconciling with that person that has conditions that must be met as well.

Meredith Brock: So good, man. Um,

without divulging too much information, I have found myself in a challenging season of forgiveness, I would say. And so that statement that you said, Lise, our heart is not signing up for it sometimes. I would say I'm stumbling my way through that right now. And it's interesting. So I'm gonna put you on the spot a little bit. I've never asked you this question before, because honestly, I don't know that I've faced a situation like this before.

But, you know, I've had a lot of, I would say trauma and things happen to me throughout my lifetime and have had to wrestle with my own triggers and all of that stuff to forgive, whether it's a perpetrator or whatever in my life.

And I would say, I've done my work in that space and I have had to go back and do it again, just like everybody else when you're triggered. But I found myself in a new season. It's much easier for me to forgive, I think, someone who has violated me.

But man, when they've messed with my kids, it is so, I am finding myself really struggling with what I feel like is injury done to my children. And I don't want anybody listening to take this out of context. There's no physical harm being done here. But

I am just, you know, whether it be, you know, and this could look so many different ways for so many different people, right? Like, let's pretend like you're in a real, you're best friend, right?

is mean to your child when the child comes over. Imagine that level of like, whoa, and you get mad at them, like, you can't treat my kid like that. Or whether it's a, let's say it's a doctor who misdiagnoses or misunderstands something about your child and it leads to greater consequences for that child. A teacher, it could be a myriad of different roles in your child's life. And how do you as a,

As a parent, like I genuinely, I don't even totally know how to ask the question, but I find myself so angry at this particular situation that I know that I am harboring unforgiveness. I know it because I'm familiar with the feeling because of things that have been done to me. And I know in this particular situation, my husband and I have talked about it a lot. And I'm like, for some reason, I wrote it down. My heart just won't stop.

it won't give in to forgiveness in the situation. And I'm like, I know that I need this because I do not wanna be carrying around this level of anger

and potentially bitterness if I keep holding onto it towards this particular individual because of what I believe they've done to my child. So speak to that a little bit.

Lysa TerKeurst: So I would say sometimes we take the word forgiveness and we think that that is the only thing that we're struggling with.

But what we need to do is break out all the feelings that we're having. And so maybe it's not all unforgiveness. Maybe some of what you're feeling is this thing rising up in you to protect your child. And that feeling is a desire to protect my child. That's not unforgiveness. Okay, maybe another feeling is justice for your child.

Now, sometimes justice and resentment or justice and bitterness can hold hands, but not always. And so if you're feeling that authentic, like,

righteous anger of this is an injustice, then that's another feeling. But sometimes it's like, I'm feeling all these hard feelings, all these angry feelings, all of this, this like huge lump of bad feeling about this situation, but not all of that is unforgiveness. And so I think breaking it apart and maybe even getting a journal out and listing like

what part of this is justice? What part of this is protection? What part of this is, you know, whatever and listing those out. And then we get to the part of forgiveness. Now,

forgiveness is not something, it's not an unfair gift we have to give to this other person. What forgiveness really is, is God's prescription for the hurting human heart to heal. I think what's complicated in your situation is it sounds like it might be an ongoing thing.

Yep. Yes. And so when it's an ongoing thing, that makes it really hard. But that's when I, you know, I look at the life of Jesus and Jesus in his humanity. I mean, obviously complete divinity and humanity at the same time. He was sinless, but he was very much sinned against.

And I find it fascinating that when He was on the cross, He uttered these words. And these were actually His first words that I find in the Bible that He uttered from the cross. These were not His last words, but His first words were, "Father, forgive them." Nothing was solved, nothing was getting better,

As a matter of fact, shortly after Jesus asks God to forgive them, they did something even worse. They were already mocking him. They were already causing him extreme physical pain and all of that.

but he was thirsty and they put a sponge soaked in wine vinegar on the stock of a hyssop and lifted it up to his lips. And nobody wants to drink vinegar when they're thirsty, but that wasn't the real offense. The real offense in that was Roman soldiers would have had sponges with vinegar with them because that's what they used to clean themselves after going to the restroom. Hmm.

So this wasn't just like, here, drink some vinegar and that's cruel. No, this was a sign of like the nastiest, dirtiest thing that they could have given to Jesus and said, put this up to your lips, you know? And so I know sometimes it's easy to then take a step back and go, okay, but I'm not Jesus. Like, you know what I'm saying? Right.

But Jesus did in Hebrews chapter two, it says that Jesus came to make atonement for our sins. But Jesus also came to be a merciful and faithful high priest to show us what we are supposed to do when we are suffering the heartbreak and the sins of other people and injustices done to us and all of that. And so I just wonder if Jesus was modeling for us

say the word forgiveness. Just say the word, God, out of obedience to you, I am choosing to forgive this person for what they have done, what they are currently doing. And whatever my feelings will not yet allow for, the blood of Jesus will surely cover it.

Just say the words, even if your heart hasn't signed up yet, and then give yourself the grace to recognize, of course you're struggling because there's all these other hard feelings that have been lumped into what you've determined is unforgiveness. But maybe you can find traction like,

say the words forgiveness and then find traction. Now, what can I do about this injustice? What can I do about this unfair treatment of one of my kids? And maybe you can find a little traction there.

Meredith Brock: That's good.

It's hard.

Lysa TerKeurst: It's so hard. You know, I remember one time, my kids are all grown now, so it's a little safer for me to talk about some of their childhood situations because it'll be harder to attach what teacher did this, you know? Yeah. But one of my daughters, when she was in middle school, which middle school is already so brutal. It's just hard. And...

One of my daughters had a teacher that labeled her as basically someone that would never amount to anything.

and she was having some struggles with school. She was doing a curriculum that was much more literacy-based, where you read and comprehend, and from that, you take lessons about science, you take lessons about history, you take lessons, but the reading comprehension is kind of the foundational skill you have to have in order to be successful with that particular curriculum. And my daughter just...

didn't have that skill or was really struggling with the skill of reading something and then fully comprehending and translating it into all these other subjects. And so she was, she literally by October of that school year, my daughter had basically given up. Mm-hmm.

And I had to make the really complicated and hard decision because I had other kids at that school. It was much more convenient to drop my kids off at one school. But I had to make the complicated decision to pull my daughter out of that school and to put her in a different environment where it was much more textbook learning. And she went from failing every grade

to getting in this new school with textbook learning. It was so much better for her brain. And she wound up graduating high school as a straight A student, 4.0. And yes, did it take some time from the middle school angst to graduating high school with a 4.0? Yes. But you want to know the secret? There was a teacher at her new school

that one of the very first weeks of school, this daughter wrote a poem and turned it in. And the teacher held the poem up in front of the entire class and said, this is one of the finest pieces of writing that's ever been turned in. And that one teacher's life over my child really propelled her into becoming an incredible student. And so here's my question. Was the teacher that...

hurt my daughter and labeled her? Was she the worst thing that ever happened to my daughter? Or was she the very thing that...

God potentially used to get my daughter into a place where she could be successful more than she ever would have been at the other school. That does not excuse the teacher's hurtful statements, but it is such an example of trusting the process that God loves our children even more than we do. And we just, we want to be able to go, okay,

This is not a great environment, so I'm going to switch my child. And you know what? That teacher served a purpose. It was a hurtful purpose, but it was a purpose that became a catalyst or a bridge to get us where we actually needed to be.

Meredith Brock: Yeah, that's good. That's a good word. It's a crazy thing that happens when somebody hurts your kid. That's right. That's right. As moms, it's wow. It's a whole nother layer that you have to work through. You know, it's not a...

It feels very different when I've been violated. I can easily...

parse apart, you know, my part in it and all that. But when it's a child, it's easy to feel like, it's a child. How could you treat a child like this?

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah, absolutely. That's why I say, break out the big complication of, you know, how dare you hurt my child and break it out into other pieces because it's not all unforgiveness.

Shae Hill: It's so good. I feel like something you're hitting at too, Lysa, is just

the power of our words. And I often hear the power of our words kind of spoken or taught in the context of like what we're saying to other people. But I think for me in context of unforgiveness or bitterness or resentment, it's the words I'm saying to myself in my head as I'm rehearsing that hurt and those events over and over and over again, because I'm,

I, things that I would not do to other people, I do not understand and I can't get past it, you know? And what I, what I'm not hearing you say is that we have to just, you know, fall into amnesia and forget what happened to us, you know? But also-

sitting there rehearsing, regurgitating the hurt over and over and over again, where every time I think of this person or think of this event or think of the situation, I can't get past it. There's also power in words there too, which I guess starts in our thoughts, but it's what we're saying to ourselves, what we're saying out loud, what we're saying to other people. And that same power

can actually be used in naming the hurt, which I love that you talk about, and using our words to work toward a healthier perspective, which is forgiveness.

Lysa TerKeurst: That's right. You know, there was a woman that played a significant role in what wound up being the death of my marriage. And it was...

it was a really challenging thing to not regurgitate that. Because to some extent, it felt a little bit like she had come in and tried to steal my life. And it was so incredibly painful because it became unchangeable. And sometimes the unchangeable can feel quite unforgivable. Yeah. Yeah.

And so I know exactly what you're talking about, like reliving, spinning over and over and over. And then also, I'm not putting this on you, Shae, because I'm not saying you do this, but my temptation was also to go over to Instagram and go shopping for pain. Mm-hmm.

I didn't think I was shopping for pain. What I was trying to do is make sense of something that made no sense.

Shae Hill: Yeah. I feel like if I regurgitate it to a certain point and it doesn't make sense, I'll just block it out. It's true. Like it never happened, which that's not good either. Right. But I just disassociate. Denial. Right. That's called denial. I disassociate so much to the point that I'm like, I can't think about this anymore. So it's just, it's gone from my mind. I can't think about it.

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. And, you know, words frame our reality. So there's two important statements that I've heard you say in just the last few minutes.

Shae Hill: I'm ready. I'm going to sit in a posture of being teachable. Tell me what you got for me. One of them, you said, I'll never get over this. And the other said, I'll pretend it never happened. You know, neither of which you also said, I know this isn't good.

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. Right.

And so words frame our reality. Every trauma we go through, it's not just the traumatic event. It's the story we then tell ourselves that determines how significant that trauma is. So we need to start telling ourselves narratives that are more in alignment with the actual truth and

And so with this person, this woman, you know, I had to do a couple of things. Number one, I had to stop shopping for pain. I don't need to see what she's doing. I don't need to see her, you know, like smiling and happy on Instagram. I just, I don't, I don't need to, because the less pain I shop for, the less pain I'll have to deal with, right? Mm-hmm.

But one day I actually was praying and the Lord said, pray for her. And I was like, first of all, God, you've asked me to forgive her. Now you're going to ask me to pray for her. And what I felt like the Lord was speaking to my heart is yes, because she just took on every problem I delivered you from. Wow.

And reframing it in that way would have never happened if I wouldn't have had that time where I was like, pray for her.

And the Lord said, yes, and this is why, you know? And I'm not saying the Lord's always gonna give us such clarity, but he gave me that clarity in that moment, which has now become an example. I don't have to know the clarity. I just have to know that what I see is not the whole story. And there are things going on behind the scenes. And I think one thing that makes it

so hard that we want to regurgitate the situation over and over and over and over is because we feel like that person got away with it. And of course, like I would never do to them what they have done to me. And now they did it. How dare they? And also,

They just got away with it. But that's not the way sin works. When someone sins against us, it's always a package deal. They may experience part pleasure on their part, but they've also just invited the pain of the consequence of that sin that's already built into the sin. They just invited that consequence into their life. We may never see the consequence, but we know it's there because every sin has built in consequences.

Shae Hill: So good. Wow.

Meredith Brock: Wow.

I needed this today, Lise. I needed to hear it in real time because of all the things and this mama bear heart's ready to hurt somebody.

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah, well, you know, I mean, Jesus makes it very, very clear, you know, better to tie a millstone around your neck than hurt one of these little ones. And so in context of that voice, maybe you could pray for that person. Yeah, and I honestly, I think that's what I'm hearing today is,

It is not a simple situation. It's not.

Meredith Brock: And anytime somebody is hurt, it's never simplistic, even if people try to make it sound that way. It's not. Because there's just layers of interpretation and past history triggering and all of that that comes to the surface when somebody's hurt. And I'm just grateful that, like you said at the beginning of this podcast, we serve a God that was fully human.

And fully God. And he was fully hurt on that cross when they handed him a sponge with vinegar in it. The most disrespectful thing that they could have done to him in that moment. And he didn't, Jesus didn't sit up there and go...

That doesn't hurt. It's fine. Like he felt that disrespect.

Lysa TerKeurst: He absolutely did. And he showed us what to do. That's right. That's right. Like nothing about that situation was tidy, fixed, made right before he said, Father, forgive them. I know. And that's the, it's both...

Meredith Brock: Beautiful and hope-giving to hear and absolutely brutal to hear. Yeah. To hear that our God would do that for us, but then at the same time to know, and because He would do that for us, I can do that. That's right. Like through the power of His Holy Spirit, whether this situation is resolved-

or not, I can say, I forgive you. Yeah. You know, and release it from my control, the things that I can't control, you know, and then...

go ahead and intervene where things, where control needs to take. That's right. And that's where you still have agency. Sometimes we think if we forgive, then we lose our agency to do something about a wrongdoing. That's not true. That's right. We can forgive and we can walk through the process of healing and dealing with the impact that that's having on us and not conflate it all together.

Lysa TerKeurst: Right, or potentially removing yourself from future hurt. Not just shopping for hurt, but saying, you know what, this is too far. I'm gonna go ahead and say, I'm gonna remove myself from this future hurt that's unnecessary and unhealthy. - And that's such a good point, Meredith. When Jesus taught us to forgive 70 times seven, I don't think he meant for us to stay close to the source of pain and allow them to keep hurting us over and over and over.

I think what Jesus meant was create enough distance between you and that person that if they never change, that you can forgive them 70 times seven without getting destroyed in the process. That's right.

Meredith Brock: That's good, Lise. I think that right there, let's land the plane there, folks. Gosh, this has been such...

A helpful conversation for me today. Thank you for going ahead and bringing me to-

Shae Hill: Me as well.

Meredith Brock: Church, therapy, whatever we wanna call this today. I hope it was helpful to our listeners, but either way, it was helpful for me. But before we let everybody go today, I did want to remind you of Lysa's book, Surviving an Unwanted Divorce. It's available right now. And if you are walking through that season yourself, first, I wanna say, I'm so sorry that you have found yourself there.

But I wanna encourage you to go get this book because I think it's just what you need to get through it healthy and whole with your heart intact and in relationship with Jesus still. If you are walking with somebody in that season, goodness gracious, this is the tool that you need to be able to walk with compassion and empathy with them. And also wanted to remind you, like Shae said at the top of this podcast,

We just rolled out season 10 of the Therapy and Theology podcast. Go take a listen to it everywhere. You listen to podcasts, you can find it. I think it would be really helpful to you. We'll also link it in the show notes if you're not able to get your hands on a podcast reader.

Shae Hill: Amazing. Guys, this was so good today. I think that's all that we have for you today. Friends, here at Proverbs 31 Ministries, we believe when you know the truth and live the truth, it changes everything.