The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast

Meghan Ryan:
Hey, friends. Welcome back to The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast, where we share biblical Truth for any girl in any season. I am your host today, Meghan Ryan. And I'm joined by my friends Shae Hill and Ashley Jackson. And if you're watching on YouTube, we're also happy you're here. Actually, this is Part 3 of a four-part series we are in about prayer. And so if you've missed the last two episodes, we encourage you to go back and listen. In Episode 1, we talked about what some of our fears around prayer are, maybe some of the things that we do that overcomplicate it, and actually, it may be a little bit simpler than we think. And then in Episode 2, we actually heard from Ashley about how to ask God, because He is powerful. And what it looks like to pray without ceasing in our everyday lives. So, Ashley, tell us what you do at Proverbs real quick before we get into our conversation today.

Ashley Jackson:
So I help with all things social media.

Meghan Ryan:
Yes, we love that. And, Shae, what do you do at Proverbs?

Shae Hill:
Yeah, so my name is Shae. I work on Lysa's content team here at Proverbs 31 Ministries. So I work on her books, her bible studies, and all the many things that spin off from those things.

Meghan Ryan:
You do a lot and we are thankful.

Ashley Jackson:
We all do a lot.

Meghan Ryan:
Yes.

Shae Hill:
Yeah, we're scrappy girls around here.

Meghan Ryan:
So today we're going to hear from you, Shae, actually. And I'm really excited because you're one of my friends in real life and someone who's walked through some seasons that have been really disappointing and through times where prayer has not been answered in my life. And you just bring a lot of wisdom and grace to this subject, and I'm really excited for our friends to hear from you. So I'm just going to hand it over to you. We'll get this conversation started.

Shae Hill:
Thanks, Meghan. And thanks, Ashley; I'm excited to be with both of you guys today. And, friends, wherever you're tuning in from, if this is the first time you've been tuning in to this miniseries, it's been so good so far. If you haven't listened to the other episodes, I want people to go back and listen to them; it's been awesome. But yeah, today's conversation, as much as we talk about the power of prayer and the why behind prayer, I think we have to ... And as we were planning this series, I was like, "We have to talk about the grief and disappointment around prayer." And honestly just saying that, it stings; it's honest and it's true, but it's just hard. And so me, Meghan, Ashley, friends who are listening in today, chances are we entered this conversation talking about grief and disappointment around prayer in two different scenarios. There may be more than two, but I really feel like there's only two. So if you feel like there's more than these, just give me some grace.

But the first one is we've been praying for an answer or a solution in one area for a long time without seeing change. Or the second one [is] in the past we've prayed about something important to us and what happened was the opposite of the result that we were hoping for. So there's a chance that maybe you've experienced both of these situations in your life; I know that I have. And I'm not here today because I have found a way around disappointment and grief in my prayer life. If that's what you were hoping to hear today, I'm sorry; I wish I had a better answer for that, but I'm actively in this place. I actually told our friend Kaley, who was on the podcast a lot yesterday, that even just prepping for this, it just almost felt like a heaviness or like a pit in my stomach. Because I just know in my own life this has created so much angst, not just in my relationship with prayer and the consistency of it in and out of my life but ultimately my relationship with God.

And I know that there's so many people on the other side listening to this conversation today that are in that exact same place. For me in particular in this topic of grief and disappointment, I've actually never talked about this publicly before, outside of conversations with friends or anything. But there is a specific prayer request that my family and I have been praying for over seven years now. And so I feel like even in Bible times, you would read different stories where it was so-and-so prayed for this for five years, or 10 years, or sometimes it was very long — 40 years or something like that. But in the context of my life — only being 28 — being that old and having been praying literally the same prayer request for seven years and seeing very little change ... I mean, I think the prayers that we're praying now are the same prayers we were praying in 2016. And it makes me so sad to just think about that for multiple reasons.

But one of which is I think about in the timeline of six years, seven years, and how many things in my life have changed, and to see zero movement in this one area is just maddening, honestly. And so I just share all that to say, I hope that you feel encouraged that this conversation is not coming from someone that has, like I said, found an outlet to escape disappointment. And this is not a “how I got through this” lesson to glean from unfortunately. But this is very much more of a “this is how I'm stumbling through this” conversation. And so when I think about the grief and disappointment that we have around prayer, like I said, there's possibly two different scenarios we're entering into this conversation of ... I fall into the first category in the example that I gave. There's something I've been praying for a really long time, and I've seen zero movement in it. It hasn't necessarily been a “no,” but it's been a very long “not yet,” OK? So you're in that waiting process.

Or the second scenario is, "I prayed for this and not only did that not happen, but it was almost like God allowed something else to happen that wasn't even on my radar." So as I think about those scenarios, there's really two places that I think I found of our options, other than continuing to press in and pray, and I'll get to that in a second. But these are our human responses that we could have. The first one is we could ignore our feelings of grief and disappointment. So we could feel the grief and disappointment; we could numb out and pretend that we don't feel that way. We could stuff those emotions; we could not be honest about them. And we could just coast, push away the hard emotions that we feel.

Meghan Ryan:
Now, do you feel like the person in that place is still praying and saying, “I believe God,” or do you feel like they're just ignoring it entirely?

Shae Hill:
I think coming out of that scenario, I think it depends on what they're praying for. If you're in that long not yet, maybe you are continuing to pray but maybe the frequency of the prayers is getting less and less, and your discouragement is just getting higher and higher. Or if it's the aftermath of something where God did give an answer of a yes or a no and it was a no, then you may take a prayer hiatus or a prayer sabbatical and say, "I really believe in the power of prayer, but I don't have it to give to engage in that right now." So that's one outlet: You feel these things and this angst toward God, and you can't bring yourself to express it just yet. So it really affects you in your prayer life where you just numb out and you pretend ... you disengage; that's one option.

And that can overflow into the second one, but I don't think they have to be mutually exclusive. You could just stop turning to prayer altogether. You could resist, you could disconnect, [and] you could choose to stop participating in prayer, which Ashley talked about in the last episode. It's really just talking to God. You could stop talking to God almost like if you have a falling out with a friend. If you have a falling out with a friend, and you just feel like, "You know what? Rather than press through some really hard conversations, implement some boundaries, [or] hash this out, let's just cut our losses and walk away." And the reason that this won't work, or I'll say the reason this won't work for me, is because I feel like I've reached this place in my walk with the Lord where I've been walking with Him for a really long time — since I was young — and I have decided I am not going anywhere.

I know that I was born, and I know that I'm headed toward heaven. And those are two big timeline places and the rest in between, I'm not so sure about all the time, but I'm not going anywhere. And so I don't know if you guys relate to these options of you could numb out or you could really just stop engaging with God altogether. But really there's a lot of reasons why long term that will not work. You will get yourself to a place that you are so disillusioned, so disappointed, so devastated, and you're not coping really with the grief and disappointment. I think that's the big thing with the first option that I mentioned of ignoring your feelings; it's not acknowledging, "This hurts and I'm upset." So neither of these will work. Are they short-term coping mechanisms? Absolutely. Have I done both of these things? 200%.

Meghan Ryan:
And is God aware that we're going to do that?

Shae Hill:
100%.

Ashley Jackson:
Yes, He is.

Meghan Ryan:
Amen.

Ashley Jackson:
Right.

Shae Hill:
Right. But I want us, and I want for myself, to stay connected to God and continue to participate in the gift of prayer that ... He's given us that gift; He's given us that outlet. He's a relational God; He wants to be close. And so here's where I landed out of all the options, either post grief and disappointment of a prayer that was told no, or during the process, where you're like me and you're like, "I've been praying for the same thing for seven years. I'm exhausted and I'm hopeful, but I'm getting a little less hopeful every single day." So here's where I landed. I think we can hold both our disappointment and our desire to continue to pray, which is really a desire to continue to grow in our relationship with God at the very same time.

We can process both our grief and remember what's true about God at the very same time. I know Lysa TerKeurst has taught me so many times over and over again sorrow and celebration can coexist at the very same time. And so I just jotted down some feelings of ways that this could coexist for us. We can be waiting and seeking. We can be skeptical and confident. We can be trembling and trusting. We can be disappointed and hopeful. We can acknowledge our feelings and speak and live the Truth of who God is at the very same time. And the reason that I feel like this is the best option, and I really feel like Scripture points us in this direction, which I'll get to in just a second, is because it feels like this is the only option that's livable over a long period of time.

When you're walking the road of just a Christian life and also walking a season of praying for something for a long time, and you feel like you haven't really gotten any relief, I have found the only way to remain authentic and authentically engage with God — authentic with myself and my feelings and continuing to engage with the Lord — is this place holding both at the same time, almost having both of our hands open. In my right hand, I'm holding all of my feelings, and I'm not judging myself for the way that I feel them. I'm not polishing them; I'm not putting my biblical perspective on them yet — I'm not doing that. I'm just acknowledging this is how I feel, and it's really not pretty. Probably not something I would ever share.

And then in the other hand, in my left hand, I'm holding everything I know to be true about who God is. You were talking about it, Ashley: praying to the ability that I know God is able, because I've walked with Him long enough to know also that He could change this, and it's maddening to feel like He's not right now, but also it hasn't shaken my faith that He could. And I think that's important to acknowledge. And as I was really thinking about this conversation of just grief and disappointment, I found myself in the book of Lamentations. And if you don't know anything about the book of Lamentations, I'm going to give you a little context, so put your Bible study hat on for a second. Lamentations is a book in the Old Testament. It's written by the prophet Jeremiah. And it consists of poems or songs that are mourning the conquest of Jerusalem and the kingdom of Judah.

So there's no doubt that this book is consisted of words of grief and disappointment, and these people are mourning. I remember I was going through a really hard season in college, and I found myself in the book of Lamentations and had no idea what the historical context was, but I just felt seen. I think the same way that we feel like when we sometimes read the Psalms, where it's chaotic because they're talking about their feelings and they're like, "But you are my God and my refuge and my strength." But that's what I think they're doing — they're allowing space for both their feelings and the facts of who God is to coexist at the exact same time. And it feels a little chaotic, but isn't that true about us too?

Meghan Ryan:
Yeah.

Shae Hill:
And so in Lamentations, I'm going to read it in just a second, but we're going to specifically hone in on Chapter 3, starting in verse 21. And there are pretty much two and a half chapters before this of not a lot of hope, not a lot of truth, just almost like you're reading the prophet Jeremiah's journal of his raw, honest thoughts, and he's just going to town, honestly. But then you enter Chapter 3, and I'm going to read it out of my Bible — this is the ESV. And starting in verse 21, so I mean just to give you context, in verse 20, he says, "My soul continually remembers it and is bowed down within me." I mean, he is sad, he is mourning, he is grieving, [and] his soul is downcast, like the Psalms we'll talk about.

And then in verse 21, listen to what this says. This is the same author, remember? So he just said, "My soul is downcast. My soul is bowed down within me," [and then] “But this I call to mind and therefore I have hope:” And there's a colon right here, so he's expanding on how he has hope. "The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end; they are new every morning; great is your faithfulness. ‘The Lᴏʀᴅ is my portion,’ says my soul, ‘therefore, I will hope in him’" (Lamentations 3:22-24). And it's really the first time in this entire book that a glimmer of hope starts to emerge; it starts to flicker. And throughout the rest of the book — I even double-checked this morning in my own little Bible study time — he doesn't just continually jump to pray songs for the rest of the book. He continues to allow the Truth of what he knows to be factual about God to coexist with his feelings of the mourning and the grief.
There's even another verse, I think it's in Chapter 3, where he's talking about the depth of his tears that he's feeling ((Lamentations 3:48). But he's continuing to know, "Great is your faithfulness; Lord, you are my portion. I will hope in you." And so I shared that because you may have not known ... I mean you may have known the book of Lamentations is sad, but you may have not known why. And I think it's important to just really talk about the emerging of that verse in 21, where it says, "But this I call to mind." And so to close our conversation today, there's three things I want us to remember, and then I'm reminding myself, like I said, I'm very much stumbling through this in real time that I want us to put into practice today.
So number one, if you notice in verse 21, I'm going to read it again, it says, "But this I call to mind." I think what the author there is really urging me to do is pay attention to what I'm paying attention to. So when we are walking through grief, when we are walking through disappointment, we can feel those things. I think God wants us to; He didn't strip us of having human emotion. We can feel those things. But at the same time, I have to be intentional that as I'm processing those emotions, that it's not overflowing into my core beliefs about God. And I think that's really important to say, because it doesn't lead to an overall doubting that God exists or that He's there or that He's listening. It may mean that you're temporarily doubting His care for you or His kindness toward you or His ability to hear you in this situation. I think all those things are really valid.

But I think paying attention to what we pay attention to means that we are saying what this verse says, in verse 21, "I'm calling this to mind." And I appreciate the way that he says that because it doesn't say, "But I'm pushing all my feelings to the side and ignoring them because God's Word says this." [Instead] it's "In the process of me talking about my soul being bowed down within me, I'm calling this to mind." So I don't know if you guys have any truths that you call to mind when you're experiencing disappointment or grief. But if there's anything that you want to share, both of you, anybody, you can share that.

Ashley Jackson:
Now, I'm going to get the reference wrong for sure.

Shae Hill:
No, you're good.

Ashley Jackson:
But I remember there's a psalm and it's, "I am confident that I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living" (Psalm 27:13).

Shae Hill:
"Of the Lord in the land of the living."

Ashley Jackson:
And I remember having to write that on our chalkboard in our house and just being like, "This is not good. But God says He's still good." So that's true; this doesn't feel true in my life right now, but clinging to that a little bit.

Shae Hill:
That's good.

Ashley Jackson:
Yeah.

Meghan Ryan:
I think that's great. And I think there's also a verse, it's in Psalm 34 that says, "For those who fear the Lord will lack no good thing." And I think remembering that we will not lack even in the things that I'm praying for where I can't see God clearly, He is supplying what I need to get through to the other side.

Shae Hill:
That's good. That's great. I think that's great. That really sets us up for our next point. So way to go, Meghan; we're really unified. I didn't even read that one, so I know you're being surprised in real time. So the first thing is pay attention to what you're paying attention to. And then the second thing that I want us to put into practice today is, or just remember honestly, is our hope is not in our answered prayer request but in Jesus Himself. So in verse, let's see ... which one is this? It's in Lamentations 3:24. It says, "‘The Lᴏʀᴅ is my portion,’ says my soul, ‘therefore I will hope in him.’" In my humanity, there are so many things that I'm tempted to scrap out ... “the Lord” in that sentence, in "The Lᴏʀᴅ is my portion," and insert something else to be my portion and my hope and my source. And sometimes that looks like answered prayer requests.

And, y'all, the things that I'm praying for that I feel disappointed in, it feels like they're things that align with who God is. They're full of good; they're full of justice; they're full of ... I'm like, God, don't You know what good this would do for people that love You or the world that You love. It's not like I'm praying for things that are outside of His Scripture. It's like I'm praying for things in His name, and I think they're things that He cares about. And it's really easy to get fixated on almost making that prayer request, my little “g” god, of this is the making or breaking of my faith. And so I'm challenging myself to remember it is Jesus Himself that is my portion. It is the Lord Himself that is my portion. He alone is who I will hope in, not my answered prayer request; God's not a vending machine. This isn't a transactional relationship. But in doing life with people, sometimes people disappoint you. And I think just normalizing ... sometimes we carry disappointment in our relationship with God, and yet we can still have hope in Him.

And then the last thing, this is something I've really started to challenge myself to really think on recently ... is just considering if you've been praying the same prayer request for a long time like me, you've been praying the same prayer request with your family for the last seven years, could it be time to change your prayer even just a little bit? And I don't mean stop praying for healing or stop praying for breakthrough or stop praying for God to intervene. I just mean maybe could it be time for me to just even add a little bit to that prayer request of ... Because what I honestly haven't done — as much as I've been so fixated on the outcome and the result that I'm really hoping for, and it's a good thing; it's not wrong — I haven't as much prayed as deeply of what God might want to do in me or through me during this.

And so, friend, if you're on the other side of this conversation, you're like me, and we are in the trenches of praying for breakthrough and something that we haven't seen progress yet. I just wonder, could it be time to change our prayer a little bit: maybe add another sentence, maybe add another tagline of the not what I will, but You will, God? Or I can't see what You're doing through this situation right now; it doesn't feel good. In fact, I've told You: I'm disappointed, I'm grieving, [and] I'm mourning. And yet I trust that You are doing something in me that is producing perseverance and strength. And You are sanctifying me through this in a way that I can't see right now. And I pray that I would not get in my own way through that process. So that's the last thing that I'm thinking on, is just maybe it's time to change my prayer a little bit. And maybe in that, the disappointment will still be there, but I think that might just infuse a little bit of hope in the process that feels like it's full of grief.

And I just want to say too: Prayer is so complicated. There's been times where I have really disengaged in my prayer life. Out of all the spiritual disciplines, it probably feels the least natural for me, which people that know me may feel caught off guard by me saying that, because I'm not usually short of words. But it's such an odd, unique, beautiful, messy thing of talking with a God that I can't see with my own eyes, but I know that He's there. And so even if you're just wrestling with this whole concept of prayer, and it could be because of disappointment and grief; it could just be because: "This feels weird. I feel like I'm talking to the air."

I just want to say keep going, keep trying, keep pressing and keep calling His Word to mind. And I know that because of Jesus, we may be temporarily disappointed this side of eternity, but we will not be forever disappointed. And where we are headed, our hope is secure, our assurance is secure, [and] our inheritance in heaven is secure. And so we may weep, but the end of weeping is coming. And even if you just need to hear that today with fresh ears, I pray that that speaks to you and blesses you.

Meghan Ryan:
Yeah. It reminds me of this verse that I've clung to a lot over the last 10 years, and it's Psalm 130:5, "I wait for the Lᴏʀᴅ, my whole being waits, and in his word I put my hope" (NIV). And I think even just remembering when we are coming to prayer and we are so hopeful that, God, You're going to come through for me; You're going to answer; our hope in the thing is going to fail, but our hope in the Lord is not.

Shae Hill:
That's good.

Meghan Ryan:
And I even just think about you talking about the timeline of I'm born and I will die and everything in between is a big question mark of ... but we can hope for what happens at the end of that and trust that because of what is in this book — every single story points to — and we can trust Him. And most of these people did not see the other side of their story in their prayer request. And yet still, there's that chapter in Hebrews that talks all about the hall of faith and how all these people go down, and they're famous in the Bible because they had such great faith.

And then it says, and it's the most disappointing verse, I think, in the whole Bible, and yet none of them saw what came to pass (Hebrews 11:13). And I'm like, "Well, dang, I might never see what the other side of this prayer looks like." But I don't know what's going to happen beyond my lifetime or what the story the Lord's writing in the grand scheme of life. And I want to encourage our listeners that your hope has to be in the Lord and not the thing you're praying for. Ashley, I know you have lots to say about this ... I'm sure.

Ashley Jackson:
Well, I love what you are pointing out that both coexist, because I have dealt with so much shame when I'm going through something really hard that's breaking my heart that I feel like I can't get out from underneath, that if I was just a better Christian, if I just had more faith ...

Meghan Ryan:
If someone said, "If you just would be more grateful ..."

Ashley Jackson:
Yeah, If I would just do all these things, then at least I would have a better perspective or I would have more peace about it. So I thought that was really good to say. You're going to continue to have pain and brokenness, but you can also at the same time have faith and not shame yourself for almost vacillating back and forth multiple times a day, even sometimes, I'm believing You, Lord. Ugh. Back and forth. So I loved that part because I think that's real life.

Shae Hill:
Yeah, that's been a game changer for me. And I think so many times I read commands or instructions in Scripture, and they feel so impossible. And I have to be reminded God wrote this knowing our limitations. And so me trying to swing the pendulum from my disappointment all the way over to 100% joy and gratitude and dancing and singing and shouts of praise is really putting an unrealistic limitation on myself ... that I don't have.

Meghan Ryan:
That's such a good reminder.

Shae Hill:
I do want to pray for our listeners today who may be walking through grief and disappointment. Is now a good time for that, or should I go for it?

Meghan Ryan:
Yeah, go for it.

Shae Hill:
OK, so if you are on the other side of our voices today and you are experiencing grief and disappointment around prayer, I want you to just pause wherever you are; maybe don't pause if you're driving — that would be unsafe. But pause just for a second and just receive this prayer and just feel encouraged that you have three friends on the other side that are championing with you, that are believing in what you're believing in. So I'm going to pray.

God, we love You and we know that You are so capable. God, You are good, You are loving, [and] You are good gracious. You're kind, You're merciful, [and] You're full of power, full of strength. And we bring our requests to You with confidence, knowing Your abilities. God, we know that You're powerful, and so we're not going to stop praying. We're not going to stop crying out, but I just pray in the things that we're bringing to You that have either been “nos” or the things that have been long “not yets,” I pray God that You would give us courage to be people who stick with You, to be with people who call to mind the truths in Your Word, even when we don't see in our circumstances anything that looks like that.

I pray that You would continue to stir our faith even when our circumstances make us feel like we're faithless. I pray that You would just remind us that our hope is not in answered prayer request or in the “yeses” that we get from You, but our hope is in Jesus alone. And I pray that You challenge each of us in the different areas of things that we're walking through — You know what they are — that it may be time to change our prayer request just a little bit.

God, we open ourselves up to what You might want to do in us and through us, even through our suffering, even through our disappointment, even through our grief, would we be available to be vessels that would be just filled with Your glory even in the midst of those things. God, I pray for my friends who are waiting for answers. I join with them. I grab their hands, and I say, "We are believing for these things in Jesus' name, and we wait in faith." God, we know You can. We trust You will. And we're thankful that You never leave us to navigate any of this by ourselves. In Jesus' name, amen.

Meghan Ryan:
Amen.

Ashley Jackson:
Amen.

Meghan Ryan:
Thanks, Shae. I think just, yeah, I hope our listeners walk away knowing that their disappointment and their desires can coexist, and the Lord is there to handle that. I think the second we stop going to Him is where we get ourselves in trouble. And so I think we can bring that — those two things together — to Him. And so, friends, we don't want you to miss ... we have one more episode in this series, and we're super excited to hear from our friend Wendy Blight. If you do not know her, she is a prayer warrior if there ever was one. And so I'm really excited to learn from her. And so if you don't want to miss that, make sure you subscribe to us on the podcast, on YouTube, and so you won't miss an episode.

And the final thing I want to share with our listeners is that we have a new study guide out, and if you're on YouTube, I'm going to show it to you, because I think it is pretty. It's called Praying Through the Psalms, 30 Days To Uncomplicate How You Talk to God. Shae and I actually both got to work on this project together, and so if you enjoyed learning from her via the podcast, you'll enjoy just walking through like we talked about: David was all over the place, and those two things can coexist. And we just want to give you guys all the tools and resources you need to have a thriving prayer life, where you can experience intimacy with the Lord. Because at Proverbs 31 Ministries, we believe if you know the Truth of God's Word and you live that Truth, it will change everything. And so we thank you for your time and we'll see you on the next episode.