The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast

Shae Hill:
Welcome to The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast, where we share biblical Truth for any girl in any season. I am your co-host today, Shae Hill, and I'm joined by my friend, Dr. Joel Muddamalle. Joel, how are you today?

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
I'm doing great. I'm excited for today's conversation.

Shae Hill:
I'm excited as well. We are back for another episode of “Ask a Theologian,” and today we're going to tackle the question: Why do I feel lonely even when I'm surrounded by people? The good news is I'm not a theologian, but you are, so let's dive right in, Joel.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Well, I would start with this. First of all, Shae, do you feel this way ever?

Shae Hill:
Totally.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
The loneliness aspect of it, what does that look like for you?

Shae Hill:
I would say I may not always feel lonely when I'm surrounded by people, but I would say a word that I more resonate with is “misunderstood.” I can say something and kind of ruminate on, I wonder what they thought about that? Or Did I say what I actually wanted to say? Or Did that misrepresent my heart's intent? But then there are definitely times where I feel lonely because of that, maybe just in a new circle or somewhere that I'm feeling uncomfortable or something like that. That's kind of where I would, I guess, resonate with this in this season of life.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, for me, this one is right on. I feel like there are times when I can be in a crowd of people, I could even be the center of attention. It could just be like I'm all in and from the outside it can feel like, "Oh yeah, he's got to be the most," I don't know, "confident and happy" and all this stuff. And on the inside, there's this sense of serious loneliness. You can be surrounded by a whole bunch of people and still feel completely alone in that moment.

Shae Hill:
Yeah, I think sometimes where this also comes to play for me ... I just kind of thought about this. I don't really have one friend group that I stick with. I have pockets of people in my life that I'm connected with through different things that I'm involved in. And sometimes when those circles overlap — this definitely happened when I was getting married because I was bringing all these people together — they don't know each other.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Right, right, right.

Shae Hill:
And so sometimes you're sitting there trying to connect these people who do not know each other, and that's where sometimes also those feelings of misunderstanding can come through, or maybe loneliness is not the right term but just moments where you can feel like, Ugh, is this going well? I don't know how this is going.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah. And I think what that exposes, for us, and this gets to the theological part of this, is you and I were ... I think our world suggests, and even we have come to believe, that loneliness is connected to proximity. So if I'm more near in proximity to people, then the loneliness thing should be dealt with. You should not have —

Shae Hill:
So if I just go get around people, then loneliness will be removed.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, you're lonely because you're by yourself. You're lonely because you're not trying to be out and go out and go and do all the things. But theologically and biblically, loneliness has less to do, and relationships have less to do, with proximity and everything to do with intimacy. Everything to do with intimacy. And the thing is, there are some pretty common modern-day examples, Shae, where we do this. It's one of those things where it's like, "Whoa. Oh, yeah." But then I just want to encourage you: You're already doing this. You get this concept already. So, Shae, what are some things that come to your mind when you think about, OK, relationship is intimacy, not proximity?

Shae Hill:
OK. When I think about proximity and intimacy being different, this one might be a little bit of a stretch, but it came to mind for me. Having a gym membership or having a gym in your home, living near a gym, all of those are proximate, but it is not the same thing as showing up and putting in the work by actually working out. You can't just grow, or grow in strength, or get healthier by living close to a gym. I wish it was that easy because I, in fact, live very close to a Y, but if I don't show up and put in the work, nothing's going to happen.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Nothing's going to happen.

Shae Hill:
Nothing's going to happen.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
So to that point, in our room, we have this awesome Peloton bike. It's like all the fad. Everybody's into Peloton.

Shae Hill:
This is in your bedroom?

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
In our bedroom. So, Brit and I have Peloton.

Shae Hill:
You're spending a decent amount of time ... you're sleeping eight hours a night there.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
A lot of time in this. So there's this Peloton, and then I've got some weights that are right next to it. And I thought, OK, how easy will it be —

Shae Hill:
Just to jump out of bed, grab those weights —

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Well, I'm not a morning person; I'm more of a night person. I'll be like a nighttime workout person. I'm like, Brit goes to sleep real fast. So I'll be like, oh yeah, well, I'm watching football or I'm watching basketball, easily, I can jump on the Peloton bike or I can get and do some weights.

Shae Hill:
How's that going for you? Is this a routine that you've implemented?

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
It has been months since I've ... but proximity —

Shae Hill:
The Peloton is getting dusty.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Oh, it is dusty. It is full. My kids are on that thing playing more than we are.

Shae Hill:
You're going to start calling it, this is a unique piece of art and not —

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, this is an art piece in our bedroom.

Shae Hill:
Exactly.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
But again, to the point of I'm not going to have the thing that I want just because it's close to me in nearness that the proximity is there for me. The other one that is very intimate to me right now, very personal, is groceries. The food —

Shae Hill:
The food situation.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
The food situation is bad because I have a personality type where when I'm in on something, I'm all in. So it's like, I'm going to be healthy, so I'm going to go to Trader Joe's. I'm going to buy all the Trader Joe's things, and it's going to be all healthy and all good. And I have all these lofty goals in my mind, and it is expensive. Trader Joe's is expensive. And so Brit gets so mad at me because I'll get all this stuff and it all goes bad.

Shae Hill:
That's not good, Joel.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Because I still hit up the McDonald's or the Taco Bell on my way home after work ... I know.

Shae Hill:
So the proximity of having groceries doesn't mean that you automatically have meals for the week. You have to do something with it, which is just an obstacle.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Which is just an obstacle.

Shae Hill:
On a little bit more of a serious note, I was thinking about this concept of intimacy and proximity. And as I was thinking about the Lord, I know that God is "with me all the time." So at all times, our proximity should be close. I have multiple Bibles in my house or multiple devotion books. We have so many books on our bookshelves. There's not just the presence of God there, but there's resources about God or even Scripture, which is God breathed, around me. But then there's totally times where I feel disconnected from Him or I don't feel close to Him. And I think that closeness kind of ebbs and flows sometimes just depending on where I'm at and what kind of season I'm in. I'm just being honest that happens to me, where I just feel disconnected sometimes.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
And I think that's a really, really important one because when it comes to proximity with God, we have to be very careful that just because we're near the things of God that we don't con ourselves into believing that we're actually near with God. Our nearness is to God. This is true with some —

Shae Hill:
It feels like that would be easy to happen.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
I think it happens all the time. I think if we're honest with ourselves, it happens all the time. Even simple things, for me personally, I've got ... in my home study, I've got a whole bunch of books about God. I've got theology books. I've got different types of Bibles. You were mentioning that. We live in a day and time where we're so blessed. My son ... the other day, I was preaching at church. I was preaching from the CSB Bible, and he realized he didn't have it. And so on his phone and his app, he just downloaded the CSB Bible app and he's live. You have more access to ... proximity —

Shae Hill:
To information.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
— to information than ever before. And yet there is something very specific about a bridge that has to be built between the proximity of something and then connecting that thing to your heart reality.

Shae Hill:
That's so good.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
And I think, this is — actually I don't think, I know — this is so important in Scripture because in Genesis Chapters 1 and 2, before you get into the fall, you get God planting a garden. Now, in the ancient Near Eastern world, Shae, when royal kings ... so think Mesopotamia, Canaan, all these ancient, ancient civilizations ... when ancient kings would build cities, at the very center of the city, they would build their kind of castle or whatever they would live in. And in that place, they would build a royal garden. They would construct a royal garden. The royal garden was the place where the king and his family would hang out, where they would talk, where they would go on walks, where they would spend time with each other.

So the opening scene of Genesis 1 and 2, which is located culturally and socially in an ancient Near Eastern context, you have a good God who is King of the cosmos. And the first thing that He does is He plants a beautiful garden, and He calls that garden Eden. And then He places His children, His royal children, in Eden. Now, we get this indication that it was routine for God to walk and talk with Adam and Eve. And we get this from actually Genesis 3:8, where God comes down and says that He was walking in Eden. I was studying this, and I found something super fascinating. The Hebrew word for walking here — this is wild — the Hebrew word for walking does not have in mind a destination. The Hebrew word for walking here, it has connotations of leisurely walk without a destination or an end time in mind.

Shae Hill:
Wow.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
OK. Let me make the connection. Brit loves to walk. That's her favorite thing to do. I do not love to walk. I'm not a walker. I don't like to run for fun. I definitely ain't walking for fun. So one of the ways that I love my wife is, she'll be like, "Babe, you want to go on a walk?" I'll be like, die to self, "Yes, I'll do that." Right, I'm going to go on a walk.

Shae Hill:
I've heard it said one time that ... this was not my quote, so I'm just going to say, I heard one time that since men don't like to walk, they decided to take up golfing. And that is their version of walking and talking.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
That's true, especially if you're in a golf cart because then you don't even have to walk. You just go in the golf cart, and you kind of drive. But I'm just going to bypass that.

Shae Hill:
Correct.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
So we're like, we're in the walk. This is typically what happens is we get out of the house, and in my mind, I already have the destination. I'm like, OK, this is what the walk is going to look like. We're going to walk down this way, and we're going to walk back down this way, and then we're going to be done. So that is my understanding of what the walk is. And for Brit, she's like, all right, we get out there and we do the pattern, we go down this way, and then we go back down this way. And then I'll look at her, I'll be like —

Shae Hill:
You're like, it's time.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
"It's time. We're done." And she'd be like, "No."

Shae Hill:
I'm just getting started.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
And then I'll be like, "Well, when are we done?" And she's like, "I don't know. I'll tell you."

Shae Hill:
I wasn't thinking about it.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
And so this is super important. For me, when I think about a walk, I'm thinking about destination in mind. I've got something to accomplish and do. But for Brit, when she goes on a walk, she could care less about the destination. She cares more about the intimacy that's built as we're on the way to the destination.

Shae Hill:
That's super interesting because as you're talking about how symbolic the garden was; it sounds like it was a place of connection and community.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Absolutely.

Shae Hill:
So then that combined with a leisurely walk, God, they had such close relationship.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Relationship.

Shae Hill:
Ideal relationship.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Yes, it was ideal because it's growing. Part of the relationship too is Brit and I have been here for 14 years. We are still getting to know each other every day. We're growing individually, and we're growing together. Shae, you and I have been friends for eight years now, and think about when we had first met. I remember the first time I met you and the first time we really hung out.

Shae Hill:
I don't know what you're about to say. I'm very nervous.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
It's amazing. I remember the first time that we really hung out was when we were working on one of Lysa's book projects, and we're up in the mountains, and we had a research writing retreat. And Brit and the entire family came out. And so it was like a working thing, but we also had family together, and you somehow drew the short stick of having to watch the kids because I think Brit was on a work call or something. So you're helping out with my boys. And there was a moment where Ly ... and we were recording a video for the publisher.

Shae Hill:
I do remember this. Y'all were on like ... Yes, y'all were recording. This is our research for what we want Lysa's next book to be.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Exactly. And so we're like, it's supposed to be professional, and this is a big deal. And then, all of a sudden — I think it was Levi — all of a sudden, Levi runs into the camera scene, and he's like, "Dad." And I'm trying to grab him, trying to push him off. You come running up the stairs ’cause you realized one of the boys is not here. And it's like, oh, OK. Think about where we were relationally as friends and as a family and all this other stuff to where we are today. It has grown.

Shae Hill:
It's evolved.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
It has changed. Levi's going to be 11. That's crazy. And so the focus isn't just proximity. Over time, proximity has changed. You've been here. I've been there. We've moved to different houses, but it's the relationship that happens in between the distance that is so vitally important in how that all grows.

Shae Hill:
So that's what it looked like for Adam and Eve to walk with God before the fall.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Absolutely not. This is also super, super important. Adam and Eve, prior to the fall, had intimacy with God, which actually is the byproduct was proximity. So look at the flow. The flow is intimacy first, then proximity. Right? It's not that proximity doesn't matter; it's just that what necessitates the proximity is intimacy. Sin enters in Genesis Chapter 3. What does sin do? Sin actually despoils; it ruptures intimacy. And as a result of the rupture of intimacy, what is the consequence? Proximity changes. So Adam and Eve are kicked out; they're expelled. They're sent out of the garden of Eden. And so their proximity actually is a visual representation of a spiritual, physical and emotional intimacy change that actually took place.

Shae Hill:
Until Jesus —

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Until Jesus —

Shae Hill:
— came to restore the axis that we have to be proximate to God.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Absolutely. So the story of Scripture from Genesis 3 until Jesus comes in the incarnation is ... if I were to summarize, it would be like, God's like, I got to have my family back together. Think about this. God's like, Man, it would be nice to go back on a walk and walk with those folks in Eden again. It'd be nice to return to that. And I think it's super fascinating that when Jesus comes in the incarnation, He spends a lot of times in gardens. He's with His disciples; He's walking everywhere with them. It's almost like what you have with Jesus in His lived experience, in His earthly ministry, is a return and almost picking up where Adam and Eve left off. And I can't imagine ... Jesus on the road to Emmaus ... He's got these two men ... it's post-resurrection, and they're on a walk. And Jesus is like, Sure, I'll go on a walk with them and talk with them.
I'm like, that's beautiful. That is the picture of relationship and how we should be thinking about the reality of loneliness in the midst of ... well, is there intimacy in this relationship or not? What is the quality of that intimacy? And does the intimacy health, or lack of, dictate the proximity reality that we have with others?

Shae Hill:
That's so good. So we're going to get into some examples of people in Scripture who actually felt lonely. This just came to me, and I think it's super interesting, as you're talking about this concept of proximity and intimacy and how Jesus was able to restore the access or redeem the access that we have to God through His sacrifice ... it got me thinking about Hebrews 4 in real time. So Hebrews 4:15 says, "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tempted in every way as we are, yet without sin" (CSB). So it's talking about how He has come as our faithful High Priest, not just to sympathize, but also He's been tempted in every way. So as He came to earth, He came on a mission to restore the intimacy and the proximity really that we could have with God.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Absolutely because the two are related.

Shae Hill:
The next verse, I do not have this in my notes, so I will not quote it because it will be wrong. The next verse, Hebrews 4:16, is the verse that talks about us approaching the throne of God boldly.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Boldly, with confidence.

Shae Hill:
Proximity.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Proximity.

Shae Hill:
That's so good.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
This is so wild. Throne room. What is the throne room? Throne room is Eden language.

Shae Hill:
Right.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Because Eden is actually the royal throne, garden of God.

Shae Hill:
He came to restore us back to —

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Eden.

Shae Hill:
— access to God and access in the garden.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Crushed it.

Shae Hill:
That is so brilliant.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
We're changing.

Shae Hill:
That is so —

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
You are a theologian.

Shae Hill:
Oh no.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Let's go.

Shae Hill:
OK. We'll see. I had one comment, so we'll see. I'm not taking this over just yet.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Brilliant.

Shae Hill:
But I think as we are prepping for this conversation and just talking about loneliness, we spent some time talking about people in Scripture who actually felt lonely or misunderstood or isolated. And we kind of broke these two types of people into two different categories. The first is that loneliness can be a reality of something that you've done to yourself. There is a circumstance that has happened that has caused you to remove yourself. And there are many examples that we could have mentioned here for this, but one that came to mind was Jonah's disobedience that led him to ending up alone. So that was something that he chose — that path of disobedience — and it led him to being isolated.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
And he ran.

Shae Hill:
He ran.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
From God and part of the run was to —

Shae Hill:
Ran from God and ran from people.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
And ran from people. Yeah, got thrown out of a boat from people. Think about loneliness in the midst of a whole bunch of people. He's in a boat with a bunch of people.

Shae Hill:
And God had a purpose all along, but there's no doubt that he chose acts of disobedience that led him in that place.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Absolutely.

Shae Hill:
So that's ... the first thing is that something you've done to yourself or you've isolated yourself. And then the second example is that loneliness can be something that happens to you.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Yes.

Shae Hill:
So this is more of a situation where something happened and you were cast out by a circumstance, a situation or by an actual person. And an example of this is Joseph in the part of the story where he is at Potiphar's house and Potiphar's wife tells a lie about him, misrepresents him. And then, Joseph gets thrown out of Potiphar's house. And where does he go from Potiphar's house?

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Goes to prison.

Shae Hill:
He goes to prison. How costly of that choice that led him into such a place of isolation. And still in this place of loneliness, God had a plan; even when Joseph did the right thing and the wrong thing happened, God was still with him, but he still felt lonely, and no doubt, he felt misunderstood.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
And the important one on the Joseph narrative is there's this actually narrative literary technique that's actually happening. This is in Genesis 39. It's pretty amazing. We believe Moses wrote the first five books of the Old Testament. This is called the Pentateuch: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. And so what I think Moses is doing is wild. Moses starts Genesis 39 ... in the first few verses, he makes a narrative note. It's like, think about this, think about being in a show. And then there's a voice outside of the show, and it's a narrator, and the voice speaks in to give you a detail about what's happening, but the people in it don't know what's taking place. This is what we're reading in Scripture. So in Scripture, it's almost like there's this voice on the outside and says, there's this phrase, "And the Lord is with Joseph," and the very next scene is [with] Potiphar's wife.

Shae Hill:
Wow.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
And then you go through the entire thing, and he does the right thing, and he does the right thing, and the right thing puts him into prison, into a pit. And that last section ends. The voice is back ... ends and says, "And the Lord is with Joseph." So this entire narrative is actually bookended by this biblical Truth that God was with Joseph. Now, here's the thing ... I'm unsure and uncertain that Joseph himself was acutely aware, intimately aware, of the nearness of God in the way that you and I now know that absolutely God was there because we can see the work and the hand of God in each part of his story, which to me, makes me want to say, “Hey, we should really slow down and just be aware in the midst of our loneliness, where it feels like we're truly and utterly alone, none of these events are making sense.” I'm doing the right thing. And even when I did the right thing, it's putting me into a deeper sense of loneliness.
Just be aware that the same narrative kind of element is true of our lives today. And there's a good God on the outside who's just saying, By the way, God's with you.

Shae Hill:
Yeah, God was with Jonah. God was with Joseph. But also our last example, God was with Jesus when He experienced loneliness.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, absolutely. So the Jesus one is fascinating to me, Shae. You read the Hebrews 4:15 passage. The book of Isaiah ... it is so powerful. It is so full of Messianic prophecies. Isaiah, as a prophet ... my man went through it. He had to deal with some stuff. But we get some of the more clear indications of who Jesus is and the situation that Jesus would be in. So Isaiah 53:5 says ... Isaiah talks about Jesus in saying that He's despised. He was despised and rejected by men, a man of suffering who knew what sickness was. He was like someone people turned away from. He was despised, and we didn't value Him.

Think about, again, the human reality. Go back to what Lysa has taught us. What is the human condition of the biblical text here? How do you feel when you're rejected? How do you feel when you're despised? How do you feel when you're not valued? My oldest son, right now, is navigating through some stuff in school. We have made the decision as a family for a lot of reasons but part of it is some data that's come out with social media and some other stuff where we're holding off on social media for as long as humanly possible. He's in sixth grade. This is kind of difficult right now because all of his friends have social media. They're on TikTok and Instagram and all of this stuff.

Now, it doesn't help that his mom is a social media influencer. She's got all the things on TikTok and Instagram. But the other day, he came home and he was very upset, and he was like, "I just feel like I'm so alone. I just feel isolated." And I'm like, "What happened?" He's like, "You guys won't let me have social media." And I'm like, "Dude, slow down. What is going on?" But he had to, for a day, just kind of had to deal with that reality. Now, how did he feel? He felt alone. He felt rejected. He felt like he didn't fit in.

Shae Hill:
Like he was missing out.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
He felt like he was missing out. He felt lonely even though he's with 115 other sixth graders because of these situations. The text here tells us that Jesus understands that. He felt it. He lived it. He experienced it. And those first two examples that we have of loneliness can be a reality of something that we've done ourselves or loneliness can be something that has happened to us.

I just want to point out that in the same way that Hebrews talks about how Jesus has experienced that; Jesus Himself did. So what is something that Jesus did Himself? Jesus, this is Philippians 2, Jesus willingly in the incarnation ... He took on human flesh, and He left the divinity of heaven to come onto earth. He willingly did that. He did that to Himself. In a sense, He separated Himself from God Himself in His humanity. He was led and empowered by the Spirit. He had union with God the Father. All those things were true, but it was different in the incarnation than it was prior to the incarnation. Now, what is something —

Shae Hill:
Just to pause really quick.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, I know this is huge.

Shae Hill:
He came to earth completely man and completely God at the same time.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
This is called the hypostatic union.

Shae Hill:
So both of these at the same time ... to a world that was fallen, where He would be born to sinful parents —

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Yes.

Shae Hill:
Coexist around sinful people, coexist around corrupt, sinful government leaders.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
You better believe it. Caesar, Pilate.

Shae Hill:
The amount of misunderstanding and —

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Religious —

Shae Hill:
— isolation.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
He had church hurt.

Shae Hill:
Totally.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
He had church wounds.

Shae Hill:
Absolutely.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
He's like, Yo, what is happening over here?

Shae Hill:
He experienced all of these isolating situations because of His human condition that He felt everything that we felt.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
And now, some people might be like, well, "Hey, Joel, what about my specific thing?" So a lot of times, the Bible is talking in principle, in generalities, and so even if Jesus may not have, in His earthly human life, experienced the very specific thing that you're thinking of, think about principally He did. And honestly, whatever we experience on earth pales in comparison to what He experienced on the cross.

Shae Hill:
Wow.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
And I'm going to actually talk about this as this next thing. What is the next thing? What happened to Him? On the cross, Jesus was actually, literally separated from God the Father on the cross. He was the recipient of loneliness. On the cross, Jesus experienced the truest, darkest, most devastating loneliness that any human could have ever experienced, because in that moment, He actually, God the Father Himself, turned His back on Jesus.

Joel, prove it. Happy to. Matthew 27:46: “About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out with a loud voice, ‘Elí, Elí, lemá sabachtháni?’ that is, ‘My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?’” (CSB). Why did this have to take place? Because in that moment, Jesus became our atoning sacrifice. He became our propitiation. C.S. Lewis refers to this, Shae, as the great exchange that we get the righteousness of Christ and He got all of our unrighteousness, all of our sin. And here's the thing: A holy God can have nothing to do with sin. So when Jesus becomes the atoning sacrifice, God the Father turns away from the Son for a moment so that Jesus could be our faithful High Priest. Jesus experienced the utter depth of loneliness so that you and I would never have to experience loneliness from God ever again if we would just submit ourselves to Jesus and trust Him with our lives.

Shae Hill:
Absolutely. And I think we can just be so comforted through the examples that we talked through ... that whether we've gone through a season where we've made some choices that we've chosen to remove ourself or isolated ourselves, or even maybe a less intense version of this could be, we're living in a new city and we chose to make that move, but yet we haven't met new community —

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
So real.

Shae Hill:
— or made new best friends. Or if this is something that happened to us, like a strong rejection or a friendship breakup or a family member who's not speaking to us because of a decision that we made ... either way, wherever you find yourself, whatever the source was that landed you in a place of lonely, Jesus understands. And we want to be so sensitive that ... obviously through this one conversation, it's not going to ease loneliness completely or perfectly in us. But I think it would be good for us to end today with just some things to consider. If you are listening today and you're like, I need a practical next step. I've been hanging out in these feelings of lonely for too long. So I have a couple things that I want to run through before we finish up today.

The first thing is — these are all in question formats: Have you been honest with people around you about where you're at or what you're going through? Joel, if there's one thing that I hate being, it is, well, these are really two things, but they kind of go together. It's being an inconvenience, or it's being needy. I do not want to be ... I think, it's the oldest child in me that is like, I will not be the one that you have to worry about. But where I get myself into trouble with this is that sometimes I can hold something really close to my heart that I'm going through and not bring other people into it because I don't want to seem needy and I don't want to inconvenience them with what I'm going through. But it cuts off this access point where we can take our relationship to the next level through intimacy and through vulnerability. But it takes me saying, “Hey, this is actually what's going on in my life.”

And so the thing to consider here is — I just want you to think about — is there an opportunity for you to deepen some relationships that you're already in simply by being more honest about where you're really at or what's really weighing on you?

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
And I would just clarify: You don't have to go from zero to 160, right?

Shae Hill:
No, actually, I would recommend that we not do that. And I would say do this with the right people and in the right circumstances. What I'm not saying is go on Instagram and start telling people, “This is actually what I've been walking through.” I'm talking about people that you actually sit with shoulder to shoulder, face to face, and they can see the tears in your eyes, and you can tell them, "Hey, when you've been asking me how I've been doing recently, I haven't been fully honest. I need to tell you what's going on so you can know how to pray for me." You may not be able to do that with everyone in your life. I would say use self-awareness and emotional maturity to really think about who those people are. But just consider, is this an opportunity that can help ease the loneliness ache in you?

The second thing is, have you been honest with yourself about what your expectations are in specific relationships? I think sometimes we're disappointed in a relationship, and we feel lonely because we haven't articulated what we need or what we expect from that specific person. And I think we also have to be honest about what we have to give, and we need to give others the space to do the same. And ultimately, this is just healthy boundary-setting happening in real time. I think as seasons change, as relationships change, there are different capacities and preferences that we have. Even in something as simple as communication, think about all the different ways that we have to connect with the people around us.

We have face-to-face communication. There's texting, audio messages, which is my least favorite if I can say that on this podcast.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Me too.

Shae Hill:
Audio messages, phone calls, FaceTime —

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Emails.

Shae Hill:
Emails, all these avenues that we can communicate. And I just wonder —

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Slack channels.

Shae Hill:
Slack channels. I just wonder how many of us are waiting for someone to pick up the phone and call us when maybe they're not in a season to be able to do that. And I think just being honest that circumstances change and things change. I have a friend who just moved across the country, and before she moved, we saw each other in person all the time. I never had to worry, Am I going to hear from so-and-so today; I knew that I would. Sometimes she would just come down to my desk, because we're actually co-workers, and we would just talk. But now, in this season of life, there has been a situation change, and now there's a need for me to call her more than I used to. And that's a privilege because it's a friend that I have who I love. But also, if I wasn't making that choice to reach out to her and call her or to try to connect with her or to pick up the phone when she calls me, I would start to feel lonely or that there had been a change in our friendship.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
We have a mutual friend, Shae. It might be the same person you're talking about, maybe not, but also boundaries in the type of conversations we have. We have a great group chat that we talk. A lot of the “Ask a Theologian” questions come out of this group chat. And one day I responded with a voice memo, and our friend responded and said, "You know I don't do voice memos."

Shae Hill:
She boundaried you.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
She boundaried me. And so again, that's super important in this discussion.

Shae Hill:
So not only ... let's consider if there's an opportunity to deepen the relationships that we have, but if there has been a circumstance change in a friendship that we used to hold really close, then maybe they're now in a different season. We can assess the change that needs to be made there. But also, we are constantly changing. So are there people around you that you're seeing in your weekly life, whether it's as you're picking your kids up from school or you're going to your gym or church? Are there people in those circles that you haven't yet connected with relationally just because they're kind of new? But as we change, I think our circles can change. So the thing to consider here is, is there an opportunity to broaden the circle of the relationships that you do have?

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
So good. So the first two is: Have you been honest with people? Have you been honest with yourself? And this last one would be: Have you been honest with God about the depth of your loneliness and your desire for that to be eased? So a couple things to just question and consider: Have you been honest with God about your needs? And I know you'd be like, Well, Joel, doesn't He already know? Well, He does know. And He also invites us to verbally and literally share those things with Him as a means of communication. My wife knows so much about me, but until I actually say it ... the saying and the doing and the processing together is what actually draws us together in intimacy. So have you been honest with the Lord about your needs?

The second thing: Have you been honest with Him about how you wish those needs would be met? If you could have it any way that you wanted, how would that way be met? Think about examples, like you're single or you long for a family or the job, the vocation, or the location that you want to live geographically, all of those things. And then this last one is so important. Then, are you willing to humbly submit to how He answers? So it's one thing to express your needs; it's another thing to let God know how you wish that they would be answered. But then it's a different thing to, in humility, say, And, God, You know all these things. But You know all, and I know limited; in the midst of my limitations, I'm going to humbly submit to how You determine ... how You choose to answer this.

And so a side note and a thought about this that I think is important: Sometimes when God doesn't answer things or we find ourselves in loneliness because of a relationship that hasn't flourished the way that we want it to, we have to be aware that it is possible that loneliness might actually be means of momentary protection from God to protect you from something that is coming that you did not even know was there or as a potential to be there. And so even though in the moment it might be painful, in the long run, God might actually be protecting you from something.

Shae Hill:
That's so good. I love that. As we've been talking about loneliness today, I think it's really crucial to mention that we've kind of talked about throughout this conversation that sometimes when we're struggling with loneliness, it's easy to feel disconnected from God and especially when we feel like He's not intervening in our circumstances. And I would love to tell our friends about a new Bible study that is out, and I'm going to let you tell them about it because you actually co-authored it.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
I know. It's super exciting. So we have 30 Days with Jesus, and it's a co-authored Bible study that Lysa TerKeurst and myself worked on. Shae, you had a massive role on this, and so your fingerprints are all over this study. And I don't know about you, but, Shae, for me, I've always wondered, Did Jesus just show up in the New Testament? Are we supposed to wait for Matthew to show up for us to get to the good stuff? And throughout this study, we'll actually show you that Jesus is present from Genesis all the way through the New Testament and that He's intimate, that He's near; He's a provider; He's a protector for us. And I think it's just going to be 30 very powerful days of walking through the reality of Jesus with you.

Shae Hill:
That's amazing. And if you are interested in that study guide, then make sure you check out the link in our show notes. And also, make sure you stay connected with us, whether that's on YouTube or leaving a podcast review. Or you can find Joel on Instagram and drop in a question on his Theology Talk Tuesday, and maybe we'll see that question for one of our next special episodes of “Ask a Theologian.”

Joel, thanks so much for this conversation today. I always enjoy our time together and just opening Scripture and talking about just real-life stuff. This really, really blessed me today. So, friends, we'll see you back next time on The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast. And as always here at Proverbs 31 Ministries, we believe when you know the Truth and live the Truth, it changes everything.